Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog

A new record minimum for arctic sea ice
Posted by: Dr. Jeff Masters, 3:07 PM GMT on November 18, 2009 +4
Arctic sea ice reached a new record minimum during the first half of November, according to data from the National Snow and Ice Data Center (Figure 1). The record low ice extent this month is the first extended period of record minimum arctic sea ice since 2007. The new record minimum suggests that the gains in ice seen over the past two years were probably a temporary fluctuation due to normal year-to-year variability in the weather, and that the long-term arctic sea ice decline observed since the 1970s is continuing.


Figure 1. Arctic sea ice extent up to November 16, 2009, compared to the record low year of 2007 and the average from 1979 - 2000. Sea ice extent over the past ten days has fallen below the record minimum observed in 2007. Image credit: National Snow and Ice Data Center.

What caused the new record low?
The record low was due to very warm air invading the Arctic during October, in combination with the unusually warm ocean temperatures that have prevailed in the region over the past few decades. The warm air temperatures were primarily the result of an intense series of low pressure systems in the Arctic Ocean, north of Siberia, that worked in concert with a very strong high pressure system north of Alaska to drive warm air from Central Asia poleward over the past six weeks. The strong storms and unusual pressure pattern brought winds of about 5 mph above average to large regions of the Arctic Ocean, which helped break up existing ice and kept ice from freezing as much as usual. With all that warm air flowing into the Arctic, the cold air that was there had to go somewhere else, and that "somewhere else" was North America. The U.S. recorded its 3rd coldest October on record in 2009, thanks to cold air flowing out of the Arctic. The temperature and sea level pressure patterns over the Northern Hemisphere for October (Figure 2) were highly anomalous, with temperatures up to 27°F (15°C) above average over the Arctic Ocean, and sea level pressures up to 11 mb above average. The atmospheric circulation pattern has shifted over the past two weeks, with the result that warm air from Central Asia is no longer being pumped into the Arctic so vigorously, nor is cold air from the Arctic streaming southward into North America. As a result, temperature anomalies in the Arctic are beginning to decline, and sea ice extent later this month will probably rise above the record minimums observed in 2007.



Figure 2. Departure of surface air temperature and surface pressure from average for October 2009. Surface temperatures in the Arctic were up to 27°F (15°C) above average over the Arctic Ocean, due to sea ice loss. The strongest anomalies occurred where sea ice was missing from its usual position, though the entire Arctic was affected. The clockwise flow of air around the anomalously strong high pressure system north of Alaska (labeled "H" in the right-hand image) helped drive a flow of very warm air from Central Asia into the Arctic, and a very cold flow of air out of the Arctic southward into North America. Image credit: NOAA/ESRL.

How will the November sea ice loss affect next summer's sea ice loss?
A record 19% of the Arctic sea ice cover this summer in the Arctic was over 2 years old, far below the 1981 - 2000 average of 52%. In the summer of 2009, NASA researcher Ron Kwok and colleagues from the University of Washington in Seattle published satellite data showing that mean winter arctic ice thickness declined by 48% between 1980 and 2008. The loss accelerated over the past five years, with the ice losing 0.68 meters (2.2 feet) of thickness between 2004 and 2008, finishing at 6.2 feet thick. This remarkable thinning was confirmed in May 2009 by the Catlin Arctic Survey, a 9-week, 435 km expedition across the Canadian Arctic led by polar scientist Professor Peter Wadhams of the University of Cambridge. Wadhams' expedition found that most of the route had first year ice just 5.9 feet (1.8 meters) thick. With El Niño conditions crossing from the moderate to strong category over the past two weeks in the Eastern Pacific, the prospects for a much warmer than usual winter in the Arctic have increased, likely setting the stage for continued record or near-record minimum sea ice extent and thickness into next spring. The arctic sea ice will be very vulnerable to a new record minimum next summer if warmer than average temperatures are seen over the Arctic.

Sea ice loss causes stronger storms in the Arctic
The stronger storms over the Arctic Ocean this fall were due, in part, to the loss of sea ice. In a 2009 article titled, Extraordinary September Arctic sea ice reductions and their relationships with storm behavior over 1979-2008, Simmonds and Keay found that September storms over the East Arctic intensified by about 1 mb over the past 30 years and had grown about 50 miles larger in diameter, thanks to all the extra heat energy supplied by more open water due to recent losses in Arctic sea ice. These stronger storms may create a positive feedback loop that will lead to even more sea ice loss: reduced sea ice drives stronger storms, whose winds break up sea ice, creating even more warm water to feed stronger storms with stronger winds, and so on. Now that the arctic sea ice is 48% thinner than 30 years ago, this effect will increase in importance, since thinner ice breaks up more readily in strong winds.

Expect an ice-free Arctic by 2030
In a press release put out by the Catlin Arctic Survey, Professor Wadhams said, "The Catlin Arctic Survey data supports the new consensus view--based on seasonal variation of ice extent and thickness, changes in temperatures, winds and especially ice composition--that the Arctic will be ice-free in summer within about 20 years, and that much of the decrease will be happening within 10 years". In their 2009 report on this year's Arctic sea ice minimum, National Snow and Ice Data Center Director and Senior Scientist Dr. Mark Serreze said, "It's nice to see a little recovery over the past couple years, but there's no reason to think that we're headed back to conditions seen back in the 1970s. We still expect to see ice-free summers sometime in the next few decades". At the December 2008 American Geophysical Union (AGU) meeting, the world's largest climate change conference, sea ice expert Dr. Wieslaw Maslowski of the Navy Postgraduate School blamed 60% of the melting during the past decade on heat brought in by ocean currents, and projected that summertime arctic sea ice would completely disappear by 2016. Dr. Jim Overland of NOAA's Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory was more conservative, projecting a 2030 demise of arctic sea ice. He thought we would be "hanging around where we are for a while", and thought it would take two more unusual summers like the "perfect storm" of 2007 to push the system to an ice-free state.

The consequences
There were 88 presentations on arctic sea ice at the 2008 AGU conference. None of the presenters expressed the view that the current long-term decline in arctic sea ice was almost entirely natural, or that we can expect the decline to reverse this century. Sea ice experts do blame part of the decline on natural variability in the weather, but we wouldn't be where we are now without the warming caused by human-emitted greenhouse gases. One view (Stroeve et al., 2007) is that human-emitted greenhouse gases are responsible for 47 - 57% of the arctic sea ice loss since 1979. Heat-absorbing black soot from fires and pollution settling on the white ice is thought to also be a significant contributor.

The consensus I heard at the AGU conference among arctic sea ice experts was that the summertime sea ice will be gone by 2030. If they are correct, we can expect a period of significantly accelerated global climate change to begin 10 - 20 years from now. Arctic sea ice is one of the critical components maintaining the stability of our current climate. Once the the ice is gone, the climate will become unstable, with highly unpredictable results. It is true that Earth's past has many examples of warmer climates that evolved due to natural causes where life flourished, and we shouldn't fear the new, stable climate we will eventually arrive at centuries from now. However, life on Earth is adapted to the current climate. The changes that will occur during the transition will be extremely disruptive to Earth's ecosystems and the humans that rely on them for life. If one were to rate the destructive capability of climate change the way we rate hurricanes, I would rate current climate change at the "Invest" or "tropical disturbance" stage--the climate change storm is just beginning to organize. But the coming climate change storm is destined to hit our children with the full fury of intensifying hurricane.

References
Kwok, R., and D. A. Rothrock. 2009, "Decline in Arctic sea ice thickness from submarine and ICESat records: 1958-2008", Geophys. Res. Lett., 36, L15501, doi:10.1029/2009GL039035

Simmonds, I., and K. Keay (2009), Extraordinary September Arctic sea ice reductions and their relationships with storm behavior over 1979.2008, Geophys. Res. Lett., 36, L19715, doi:10.1029/2009GL039810.

Stroeve, J., M.M. Holland, W. Meier, T. Scambos, and M. Serreze, Arctic sea ice decline:Faster than forecast", GRL 34 L09501, doi:1029/2007GL029703, 2007.

The road to Copenhagen
By some accounts, the future of the world will be at stake this December, when the crucial U.N. Climate Change Conference will be held December 7 - 18 in Copenhagen, Denmark. At that meeting, the leaders of the world will gather to negotiate an agreement to replace the 1997 Kyoto Protocol. The new agreement will be the world's road map for dealing with climate change, and the stakes are huge. Dr. Ricky Rood, author of Wunderground's climate change blog, will be there, and Wunderground has given the University of Michigan a grant to send a student who will also blog for us. I have a number of posts I'm planning in the run-up to Copenhagen, including:

- Impact of arctic sea ice loss on Northern Hemisphere winter weather
- The Manufactured Doubt industry
- What global warming skeptics say about arctic sea ice
- Is higher CO2 more beneficial for Earth's ecosystems?

I'll also have an end-of-hurricane season summary on November 30, plus posts on whatever breaking weather stories occur. My next post will be Friday, when I plan to summarize the global weather last month, which was the 2nd - 6th warmest October on record.

Jeff Masters
Categories: Climate Change Sea Ice
  Permalink | A A A
Reader Comments
Display: 0, 50, 100, 200 Sort: Newest First - Order Posted
Viewing: 1 - 51

Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15Blog Index

1. largeeyes 3:17 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
That's a lot of anomalies...

The new record minimum suggests that the gains in ice seen over the past two years were probably a temporary fluctuation due to normal year-to-year variability in the weather

BUT.....

The record low was due to very warm air invading the Arctic during October, in combination with the unusually warm ocean temperatures that have prevailed in the region over the past few decades

Not starting a debate on this, but it seems we are returning to the norm by way of very unusual temperature departures.
Member Since: August 22, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1381
2. markinthedark 3:19 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
I am still not sold on GW I dont think even with all the scientific knoledge that there is enough weather history to support it
Member Since: August 20, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 23
3. jeffs713 3:26 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Thanks for the great post, Dr. M!

Hopefully, discussing issues brought up by GW skeptics will mollify them a bit. (I doubt it, though)
Member Since: August 3, 2008 Posts: 15 Comments: 5722
4. Floodman 3:31 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting markinthedark:
I am still not sold on GW I dont think even with all the scientific knoledge that there is enough weather history to support it


That having been said, does it make sense to wait longer to address what is preceived to be a problem? I myself am not conviced about the extent of man's influence in the increase in temps, but it only makes sense environmentally to look for better ways to provide energy that have a lower profile, impact wise, to increasing the amount of CO2 and other greenhouse gases produced. By the way, GW is an ugly phrase and misleading based on connotation...given a certain relatively steady rise in temps, this difference can be evidenced by wildly varying events; a colder, bitter winter here, a far warmer winter there...the atmosphere is large enough and complex enough that you won't see a steady overall change but rather a number of "bounces" eventually equalling out. Remember also that the weather we see is, in an over-simplified way, the atmosphere trying to reach equilibrium...all systems move towards entropy and the atmosphere is no different; it's trying to reach an homogenous overall condition
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
5. Floodman 3:32 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Thank you, Dr, Masters, an interesting entry that will certainly fire a few, umm, well...energetic, shall we say, debates in here today.
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
6. lawntonlookers 3:38 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
I kind of agree that man does not have enough data, although going through the industrial age, man did put a lot of gasses in the air that were stored for millions of years in the earths resources.
Member Since: March 22, 2006 Posts: 9 Comments: 1570
7. TheCaneWhisperer 3:42 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Thanks for the update Dr. Masters, I think.

Very interesting stuff.

Natural reaction is to prepare but, for what? And, will it make any difference? 10 to 20 years from now is a significant jump from what was previously thought.

Seems that living life in a normal way with a goal to reduce our impacts on climate change and a healthy education is the way to go.
8. ConchHondros 3:49 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Funny...we talk a lot about cause and effect and possible solutions...follow the money...money equals power and influence. T Boone wants wind, he owns the patent on a turbine and the manufacture rights...hmmm, now he is pushing natural gas and conversion of autos...owns the natural gas infrastructure...hmmm. Find a cure for Aids or Cancer and somebody like T Boone will buy it and sit on because they own the symptomatic treatment drugs...and you would sell it to them because you like the money too...hmmm...don't think you have a price? I would bet you do...but, the debate is admirable...just not going to go anywhere for the near future.
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 551
9. riblet2000 3:51 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
All natural systems are essentially feedback loops...and anyone who has ever studied them knows that once the moderating mechanisms break down they either die quickly (negative feedback) or fly out of control almost immediately (positive feedback). Most of the debate is political rather than scientific but that doesn't change the fact that once this starts in earnest the political debate won't matter a bit. If the 'alarmists' are even partially correct, our children are in for trouble.

And even if GW is total baloney, it is still in our enlightened best interests to reduce our footprint if for no reason than to make things better for our kids. Imagine what living in a large city 200 years ago was like. Would you want to do that? Pollution reduction is the right thing regardless of Arctic Ice.
Member Since: April 17, 2003 Posts: 0 Comments: 28
10. biff4ugo 3:52 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Wow! I made it to the first page of comments.

I haven't heard any mention of the negative feedback from a weaker Gulf Stream. If the arctic is warmer, that should slow currents along the bottom of the Atlantic, slow surface warm currents, and lead to at least one colder force on the Arctic.
Yes?
Member Since: December 28, 2006 Posts: 107 Comments: 1181
11. markinthedark 3:52 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
I agree GW is a bad term but is widely used to make comments concerning weather changes. IMO I just think the earth is going through a natural warming cycle possibly leading to another ice age in the next million years or so give or take a few years. The unfortunate or perhaps fortunate thing is that none of us will be here to say I told you so. And yes mans pollution or just sheer greed may have helped speed up this natural process.
Member Since: August 20, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 23
14. kellnerp 4:02 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Weatherman's rule number one: Always carry an umbrella.

So if the climate is changing and we are adapted to the way it is, then change the adaptation to the way it will be.

Weatherman's rule number two: If the weatherman says it is not going to rain, look outside first before leaving your umbrella at home.

No matter how sure these guys think they are and no matter how much they think doubters are raining on their parade, there is much more evidence to doubt a weatherman. I'm not being mean, it is just a fact. So if I am going to get roped into something based on what weathermen predict I'll want a big umbrella.

Based on what I have seen the US puts far less carbon into the atmosphere per unit of fuel used that just about anywhere in the world. China and the 3rd world are the biggest offenders and also the biggest contributors. Slow them down till they can deal with this at the same level that the US is currently doing and you will have a huge reduction in carbon if that is even a problem.
Member Since: September 1, 2003 Posts: 0 Comments: 170
15. originalLT 4:07 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Well said Floodman in post # 4. The other comments were well thoughtout too by everyone so far.
Member Since: January 31, 2009 Posts: 0 Comments: 5056
16. clwstmchasr 4:11 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Oh boy! The GW debate will rage again today....
Member Since: July 29, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 2755
17. Floodman 4:12 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting ConchHondros:
Funny...we talk a lot about cause and effect and possible solutions...follow the money...money equals power and influence. T Boone wants wind, he owns the patent on a turbine and the manufacture rights...hmmm, now he is pushing natural gas and conversion of autos...owns the natural gas infrastructure...hmmm. Find a cure for Aids or Cancer and somebody like T Boone will buy it and sit on because they own the symptomatic treatment drugs...and you would sell it to them because you like the money too...hmmm...don't think you have a price? I would bet you do...but, the debate is admirable...just not going to go anywhere for the near future.


Well put, Conch...you're an intelligent man
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
18. Floodman 4:18 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting P451:


2009 anomaly compared to WHAT DATA SET? The past 15 years of satellite data?

This is where the debate always loses me. We write articles about global warming with the inference that we have a complete and untainted data set stretching thousands of years. When in fact we have maybe 15 years worth of reliable data - that might not be all that reliable given the changing instruments and how they gather data.



To some degree, the size of the dataset doesn't matter; we are having some larger or smaller impact on the process beyond any shdow of a doubt and we do need to figure out a way of reducing that effect.

Where the data becomes important is when the "sky is falling" crowd tries to quantify the effect and put a timeline for catastrophe together, or where the "it's a hoax" crowd tries to refute the "sky is falling" bunch...

The friction here is caused by the ones that don't really care, one way or the other...there will always be those that throw red paint on fur coats and those that make fur coats because there's money in them...the rest of us get to reap the whirlwind in a way for their inability to come to some agrrement. Some just live for the struggle, while others struggle to live (wow, how glib was that?)
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
19. Floodman 4:19 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting kellnerp:
Weatherman's rule number one: Always carry an umbrella.

So if the climate is changing and we are adapted to the way it is, then change the adaptation to the way it will be.

Weatherman's rule number two: If the weatherman says it is not going to rain, look outside first before leaving your umbrella at home.

No matter how sure these guys think they are and no matter how much they think doubters are raining on their parade, there is much more evidence to doubt a weatherman. I'm not being mean, it is just a fact. So if I am going to get roped into something based on what weathermen predict I'll want a big umbrella.

Based on what I have seen the US puts far less carbon into the atmosphere per unit of fuel used that just about anywhere in the world. China and the 3rd world are the biggest offenders and also the biggest contributors. Slow them down till they can deal with this at the same level that the US is currently doing and you will have a huge reduction in carbon if that is even a problem.


A very good point...
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
20. Ossqss 4:20 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
21. lawntonlookers 4:24 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting P451:


2009 anomaly compared to WHAT DATA SET? The past 15 years of satellite data?

This is where the debate always loses me. We write articles about global warming with the inference that we have a complete and untainted data set stretching thousands of years. When in fact we have maybe 15 years worth of reliable data - that might not be all that reliable given the changing instruments and how they gather data.



Well said 451. Yes they can take core borings of the earths crust, ice formations, trees and etc. But with the newer instruments that can detect .000000001 degree or what ever measurment today when 100 years ago very few instruments could detect within 1 degree. In addition, the instruments are pretty much world wide now as 100 years ago were isolated.
Member Since: March 22, 2006 Posts: 9 Comments: 1570
22. pearlandaggie 4:31 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
AMSRE Sea Ice Extent. The satellite has recently had a few sensor problems which seem to have been corrected.


As you can see, there has been some warmer air intrusion over the last few weeks...
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
23. jeffs713 4:34 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Regardless of Global Warming and all, we still have a responsibility as residents of this ball of solids, liquids and gases to be responsible and not waste what we have.

Right now, we drive vehicles that waste (at best) 70% of the energy they produce. Most of that energy lost is in the form of heat. We are using energy stored up in the form of hydrocarbons at a rate MUCH higher than how quickly it can form. We have yet as a society to find an efficent way to capture our most plentiful energy source, which is sunlight. Wind power and tidal power is an efficient power generator, but it is highly inefficient for energy generation. Nuclear power, while it is very efficient at generating power, it also produces waste that is an extreme biohazard for dozens of years.

JUST looking at energy generation, we are woefully inefficient. Add in the costs of increased pollution, such as healthcare and natural habitat destruction, and we are on a path from which nothing good can come.
Member Since: August 3, 2008 Posts: 15 Comments: 5722
24. pearlandaggie 4:36 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
23. i wouldn't worry about it too much...we'll all be living in mud huts in 20 years anyway!

j/k :)

oh wait...the world ends in three! that take a few things off of my plate :)
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
25. TheCaneWhisperer 4:40 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting P451:


2009 anomaly compared to WHAT DATA SET? The past 15 years of satellite data?

This is where the debate always loses me. We write articles about global warming with the inference that we have a complete and untainted data set stretching thousands of years. When in fact we have maybe 15 years worth of reliable data - that might not be all that reliable given the changing instruments and how they gather data.




With a general consensus of the Arctic being free of ice in 10 to 20 years one can draw explicit conclusions as to the outcome. The lack of sea ice is a visible, occuring feature. Weather it's a result of GW or not, it's happening, that much is for sure.



On November 28, 2008, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation reported that the Canadian Coast Guard confirmed the first commercial ship sailed through the Northwest Passage. In September 2008, the MV Camilla Desgagnés, owned by Desgagnés Transarctik Inc. and, along with the Arctic Cooperative, is part of Nunavut Sealift and Supply Incorporated (NSSI),[54] transported cargo from Montreal to the hamlets of Cambridge Bay, Kugluktuk, Gjoa Haven and Taloyoak. A member of the crew is reported to have claimed that "there was no ice whatsoever". Shipping from the east is to resume in the fall of 2009.[55] Although sealift is an annual feature of the Canadian Arctic this is the first time that the western communities have been serviced from the east. The western portion of the Canadian Arctic is normally supplied by Northern Transportation Company Limited (NTCL) from Hay River. The eastern portion by NNSI and NTCL from Churchill and Montreal.[56][57]
26. Chucktown 4:40 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
It all goes back to Newton's 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. The amount of usable energy within the planet is finite and we continue to decrease the amount of usable energy. Slowing this process down really isn't an option. Going back to the third world nations, these folks truthfully don't care about the environment and are more interested in advancement of their society, and rightfully so. The U.S., China and the rest of the developed world had this opportunity over the last 100 years.

I may be in the minority, but I refuse to alter my lifestyle to "save" the planet. Al Gore is a hypocrite every time he flies his jet at 30K feet or gets a ride in his Expedition, but wait he's not driving. I have children and I am a meteorolgist, but the past generations didn't think about my generation to get this point and neither will I. I feel advancement in technology will eventually "catch up" to the politically driven global warming and will right itself in the next few hundred years.
Member Since: August 27, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1386
27. hurricanejunky 4:41 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Regardless of anything else we should be good stewards of the planet. This means doing exactly what Flood was referring to in that alternative energies are absolutely a good idea. Anything to prevent bad air quality and improve the environment are a good thing. Money and politics, unfortunately, have a horrible impact on this debate and consequently, things are very slow to get done.

BTW, Flood we'll be praying for a speedy recovery for you! Good luck my friend.
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2875
28. taistelutipu 4:41 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Good advice, kellnerp. Living in the UK I always have my umbrella with me but I think in addition to the umbrella I'll need a boat today since we are under a red alert for heavy rain and flash flooding. This is the first time I see the red code on meteoalarm for my area (Wales).

Because of this my rugby game was canceled today due to a flooded pitch. We haven't been able to train on our accustomed pitch for over 2 weeks now (has been flooded for said period) and had to go to another one but this one is now also flooded.

The storm is pretty bad. Several roads in Wales have been closed due to flooding since the early morning hours and the weather station in Capel Curig has recorded gusts up to 81 mph (10 min average 51 mph).

So if you ask me, there is definitely something going on. I wouldn't call it GW although the temperatures are continuously above November averages. The biggest issue for the UK won't be the rise in temperature (I would actually welcome an additional 2-3 degrees on average, then I wouldn't have to put on my heating for most of the year, thus saving energy) but the flooding.

We had tremendous flooding in three consecutive years

2007 (see BBC link) (see wikipedia article about the flood), see photo and video collection about the flooding

2008 (January in Yorkshire, Leicestershire Worcestershire; August and September across the Northern UK)

and now this year again flooding, the period of very wet weather starting nearly 3 weeks ago with a flood warning on November 1 until the recent warnings of today: BBC News on the storm here in Wales.

Other notable floodings in this decade include the Glasgow flooding 2002, Boscastle flooding 2004 and the Carlisle flood 2005.

If the trend continues in the same way we might have to switch from rugby to water polo by converting our pitches to pools or start playing rugby indoors.
Member Since: August 20, 2007 Posts: 10 Comments: 566
29. Chucktown 4:42 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Sorry, mistyped meteorologist.
Member Since: August 27, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1386
30. beell 4:51 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Member Since: September 11, 2007 Posts: 125 Comments: 12881
31. pearlandaggie 4:52 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
"The Manufactured Doubt industry"? Really? Seriously?

wow...seriously, how does this further the discussion? how can ideas be exchanged with that kind of rhetoric?
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
32. Floodman 4:58 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting jeffs713:
Regardless of Global Warming and all, we still have a responsibility as residents of this ball of solids, liquids and gases to be responsible and not waste what we have.

Right now, we drive vehicles that waste (at best) 70% of the energy they produce. Most of that energy lost is in the form of heat. We are using energy stored up in the form of hydrocarbons at a rate MUCH higher than how quickly it can form. We have yet as a society to find an efficent way to capture our most plentiful energy source, which is sunlight. Wind power and tidal power is an efficient power generator, but it is highly inefficient for energy generation. Nuclear power, while it is very efficient at generating power, it also produces waste that is an extreme biohazard for dozens of years.

JUST looking at energy generation, we are woefully inefficient. Add in the costs of increased pollution, such as healthcare and natural habitat destruction, and we are on a path from which nothing good can come.


exactly...well put, Jeff

Oh and pearland, movie trivia question: Which film does this come from:"Spoken like a true smarta$$!"
LOL
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
33. GetReal 5:02 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Thanks Dr. Masters for bringing the politics of AGW back to the table...

Let us all know when Greenland becomes a green land mass again.... I'll need a place to go into exile to escape the Cap & Trade taxes!
Member Since: July 4, 2005 Posts: 204 Comments: 8196
34. Floodman 5:03 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting Chucktown:
It all goes back to Newton's 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. The amount of usable energy within the planet is finite and we continue to decrease the amount of usable energy. Slowing this process down really isn't an option. Going back to the third world nations, these folks truthfully don't care about the environment and are more interested in advancement of their society, and rightfully so. The U.S., China and the rest of the developed world had this opportunity over the last 100 years.

I may be in the minority, but I refuse to alter my lifestyle to "save" the planet. Al Gore is a hypocrite every time he flies his jet at 30K feet or gets a ride in his Expedition, but wait he's not driving. I have children and I am a meteorolgist, but the past generations didn't think about my generation to get this point and neither will I. I feel advancement in technology will eventually "catch up" to the politically driven global warming and will right itself in the next few hundred years.


You're entitled to your opinion, but closing your eyes just makes the timing of the crash a mystery, it doesn't prevent it form happening.

Also, do you write checks for items before you know he money is in the account? Science hasn't caught up and if it doesn't you're writing a pretty big rubber check...
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
35. pearlandaggie 5:03 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
32. that would be a movie that i've never seen before! LOL (Steel Magnolias, i believe)
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
36. markinthedark 5:03 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
I am a full blooded south floridian born and raised and never put much trust in the weather forecast from day to day especially in the summer, it is either going to rain in the middle of the state or if either ocean breeze is strong enough going to rain on one of the coast lines. It has been that way for ever the tropics are somewhat predictable in the summer in south fla. Having said that and lived through every cane since 59 I would rather live anywhere else inland way inland if we are going to see an increase in violent hurricanes, if infact anyone can show me that the weather patterns are going to change so drastically in the next 10 to 20 years. I think I will go get my crystal ball....
Member Since: August 20, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 23
37. pearlandaggie 5:06 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
well, it's certainly true that data is not driving the discussion these day! LOL
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
38. Floodman 5:06 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
27.

Thanks, Hurricanejunky!
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
39. Floodman 5:09 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting pearlandaggie:
32. that would be a movie that i've never seen before! LOL (Steel Magnolias, i believe)


DING!DING!DING!

Thank you for playing...
Member Since: August 2, 2006 Posts: 10 Comments: 9919
40. pearlandaggie 5:10 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
39. isn't IMDB great? LOL
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
41. Chucktown 5:15 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting Floodman:


You're entitled to your opinion, but closing your eyes just makes the timing of the crash a mystery, it doesn't prevent it form happening.

Also, do you write checks for items before you know he money is in the account? Science hasn't caught up and if it doesn't you're writing a pretty big rubber check...


I'm not closing my eyes to anything, I am very well aware of what the media is shoving down our throats about global warming. Hell, I'm part of the media, but I don't agree with it. Going back to P451 comment about data set, why are we basing the recent "warming" and increase in CO2 levels on about 100 years or so. Do we really know what happenned in 1250 or in 1367 with regards to the earth's CO2 level and temperature. Ice core samples are just one measure and really don't have anything to compare it to.
Member Since: August 27, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1386
42. HadesGodWyvern 5:17 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Mauritius Meteorological Services
Tropical Cyclone Advisory Number EIGHTEEN
PERTURBATION TROPICALE, FORMER ANJA (04-20092010)
16:00 PM Réunion November 18 2009
=========================================

At 12:00 PM, Tropical Disturbance, Former Anja (1003 hPa) located at 21.6S 66.3E has 10 minute sustained winds of 25 knots with gusts of 35 knots. The disturbance is reported as moving south-southeast at 15 knots

RSMC Dvorak Intensity: T2.0

Forecast and Intensity
======================
12 HRS: 26.9S 71.1E - 30 kts (se Comblant)
24 HRS: 30.4S 76.1E - (se Dissipant)

Additional Information
========================
The still fairly well defined low level vortex is now speeding up towards the south-southeast within the northwestern flow ahead of the cold front. Convection has not restarted over the center since more than 12 hours, consequently the system is now downgraded to a tropical disturbance status with maximum sustained winds of 25 knots. No major change in the general philosophy of the forecast: ANJA should merge within the cold front located to its southwest.

THIS IS THE FINAL TROPICAL CYCLONE ADVISORY ISSUED BY THE MAURITIUS METEOROLOGICAL SERVICE UNLESS REGENERATION OCCURS
Member Since: May 24, 2006 Posts: 43 Comments: 36686
43. Patrap 5:21 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
The warming of the Globe continues,regardless of the debate as to whats inducing it.

But I go with the Data,..as those Co2 and Co3 ,methane and pollutant "Fairies" that some think come out every night and scrub the Atmosphere clean with their Harry Potter wands,are slightly overwhelmed by Mans 24/7/365 assault on our atmosphere.


Copenhagen at Dusk..

Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 371 Comments: 111503
44. markinthedark 5:23 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
nice post pat my head is not in the sand on this either just a bit skeptical... lol
Member Since: August 20, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 23
45. pearlandaggie 5:27 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
44. you denialist scum!

LOL j/k :)
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
46. RobChemist 5:27 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting Chucktown:
It all goes back to Newton's 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. The amount of usable energy within the planet is finite and we continue to decrease the amount of usable energy.


While the second part of your statement regarding finite amount of energy is correct, the first is wrong. Newtonian Physics assumes that matter and energy cannot interconvert. Einsteinian Physics, via relativity, showed that matter and energy can be interconverted. This is the basis of nuclear power.

Regarding the loss of Arctic Sea ice and storms being a positive feedback loop, I am not sure that this is correct. Stronger storms clearly break up sea ice. But, they also have two other effects - they will cool the ocean surface more rapidly due to enhanced evaporative cooling via increased wind speeds and, potentially, enhanced convective processes. The cooling effect would provide a negative feedback brake on warming. Also, depending upon the precise wave and ice conditions, they can stack pieces of sea ice, creating effectively thicker sea ice and increasing the rate of new sea ice formation on the open water as compared to ice-covered water.
47. pottery 5:29 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
HHHhhmmm. A global warming blog??
Seems to me, that the general consensus is "well, there is no evidence to convince me as yet so it's all bunk. A Conspiracy even."
So carry on regardless. Someone else will deal with it. The status quo rules. Onward to more of the same.

I saw a comment yesterday, saying that the cost to convert to Metric would be too expensive, and all factories that make everything in the US would have to re-tool to "comply".
Excuse me?? The whole world is Metric, and I for one still buy the same sized sheet of plywood as before. Sizes do not change, just the method of measurement.
Fear of change is a real thing., for sure.
But I cannot understand why some people are so scarred of changing anything at all.
And pollutants, deforestation, waste, water supply and food supply are real issues that relate to weather, climate, and observed warming.
And food and water may be the first things to start to trouble people. It's not about how many hours we drive our cars. There are bigger issues involved.


Member Since: October 24, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 20708
48. clwstmchasr 5:29 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Game on!
Member Since: July 29, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 2755
49. Patrap 5:30 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Presslord and myself will be attending the Cuban-US Hurricane Conference here in New Orleans Monday.

CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL POLICY

1717 Massachusetts Avenue, NW, Suite 801

Washington, DC 20036-2000



The Center for International Policy Takes Pleasure in Inviting You to

A Conference on U.S.-Cuban Cooperation in Defending Against Hurricanes

To be held November 23, 2009, in New Orleans at River City Plaza, next to Mardi Gras World

1380 Port of New Orleans Place



2 p.m. Introduction by Wayne S. Smith of the Center for International Policy



2:15 2:45 p.m. Vital U.S.-Cuban Cooperation in Tracking Hurricanes and Warning of their Approach. Jose Rubiera, of the Cuban Meteorological Center (invited) and Lixion Avila of the U.S. Hurricane Center in Miami. Chaired by Jay Higginbotham, Archivist Emeritus of Mobile



2:45 4:00 p.m. - U.S.-Cuban Cooperation in the Face of Hurricanes. Dagoberto Rodriguez Barrera, Cuban Vice Minister of Foreign Relations (invited); Lt.General (Ret) Russel Honore, Former Commander of Joint Task Force Katrina; Lt. Col (Ret) Jerry Sneed, Director of Emergency Preparedness of Orleans Parish; Ivor van Heerden, Founder of the Louisiana State University Hurricane Center; Robert Turner, Director of the Southeast Louisiana Flood Protection Authority. Chaired by Wayne Smith, Center for International Policy.



4:00 4:30 p.m. The Growing Focus on Disaster Medicine and Disaster Management in Both the U.S. and Cuba. Dr. Guillermo Mesa Ridel, Director, Latin American Center for Disaster Medicine (invited); Dr. Alex Isakov, Founding Director of the Emory University Office of Critical Event Preparedness and Response; Lt. Gen Russel Honore, Board Member of LSU%u2019s Stephenson Disaster Management Institute; Chaired by Randy Poindexter, Executive Director of International Cuba Society



4:30 4:45 p.m. President Obama's Prerogative, Despite the Embargo, to Authorize U.S. Companies to Sell Cuba Reconstruction Materials and Equipment. Robert L. Muse, Attorney, Muse and Associates



4:45 5:00 p.m. Shared Ecosystems: Opportunities for Increasing Environmental Cooperation and Collaboration between Cuba and the United States. Dan Whittle, Senior Attorney with the Environmental Defense Fund.



5:00 6:00 p.m. Open Discussion. Participants from the various delegations to Cuba, and other interested parties, are invited to comment and express opinions as to new initiatives and directions and how we could better organize to advance our objectives. Mr. Ky Luu, the Director of the Tulane University Disaster Resilience Leadership Academy, will have the first comment.



6:00 7:30 p.m. - Reception with cash bar in the Grand Oaks Mansion



The Center for International Policy wishes to express its appreciation to

Atlantic Philanthropies for the support which made this conference possible

How to get there:



Our conference is being held in the Iberville Reception Room in the River City Complex, next to the new Mardi Gras World site, which is not to be confused with Blaine Kerns Mardi Gras World on the West Bank. The new location is situated at the Upriver end of the Convention Center just beneath the Mississippi River Bridge, also known as the Crescent City Connection right next to the Port of New Orleans.



If arriving by I-90, exit Tchoupitoulas Street and drive Upriver following the signs to the Port Terminal. From Tchoupitoulas, turn onto Henderson Street, the long avenue lined with palm trees leading to the entrance to the Port of New Orleans and Mardi Gras World. Turn right upon arrival at Mardi Gras World and follow the signs to the Hurricane Conference. The River City Complex is at the far end of the Mardi Gras building. Park free and enter from the river side of the building to the Iberville Reception Room where our conference is being held.
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 371 Comments: 111503
50. pearlandaggie 5:30 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
43. it's okay...i didn't report you! LOL put the other picture back :)

it did so much to foster discussion! LOL

just messin' with ya :)
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
51. AwakeInMaryland 5:32 PM GMT on November 18, 2009    
Quoting Chucktown:
... but the past generations didn't think about my generation to get this point...

(ME) Oh, so not true! Anyone else have relatives who were immigrants, or Depression-Era-Babies (DEBs), or relatives in other countries? My parents only had one car and we had no dryer for ages. I have an Aunt overseas who washed and dried plastic bags and never used a dryer (true, lived in a warm climate...but thought Americans were scandalous in their waste -- this was in the '70s!) Now some of this was to save money and give a better life for their children, some of it was sensible New England frugality, and some of it was just "waste not, want not." But the lessons learned were essentially the same as the ones we want to teach today about saving the planet.

and neither will I.

(ME) Sigh. You mentioned you have children.

I feel advancement in technology will eventually "catch up" to the politically driven global warming and will right itself in the next few hundred years.


I agree with your last sentence, mostly! (Exception perhaps for the politically driven part...) I'm not a Pollyanna, but try to be a half-glass full kind of person, because good things can and are still happening. We must refuse to give in to gloom and doom, or we will perish.

This is a GREAT article. Intertwines with sustainable development.

In Amazon (Brazilian Rain Forest), a Frustrated Search for Cancer Cures


Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918

Viewing: 1 - 51

Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15Blog Index

New Comment
Community Standards Policy Comments will take a few seconds to appear.
Post Your Comments
Please sign in to post comments.
Not only will you be able to leave comments on this blog, but you'll also have the ability to upload and share your photos in our Wunder Photos section.
About JeffMasters
Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

Local Weather
Overcast
61 °F
Overcast
Community Activity