Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog

Thailand's flood gradually subsiding; climate change increasing Thai flood risk
Posted by: Dr. Jeff Masters, 2:56 PM GMT on November 14, 2011 +23
Unprecedented flood waters continue to besiege Thailand and its capital city of Bangkok this November. Heavy monsoon and tropical cyclone rains from July through October, enhanced by La Niña conditions, have led to extreme flooding that has killed 506 people and caused that nation's most expensive natural disaster in history, with a cost now estimated at $9.8 billion by re-insurance company AON Benfield. Thailand's previous most expensive natural disaster was the $1.3 billion price tag of the November 27, 1993 flood, according to the Centre for Research on the Epidemiology of Disasters (CRED). The floodwaters this year have hit 83% of Thailand's provinces, affected 9.8 million people, and damaged approximately 25% of the nation's rice crop. Thailand is the world's largest exporter of rice, accounting for 30% of the global total, and the flood has helped trigger an increase in world rice prices in recent months. Fortunately, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the U.N. reports that overall global food prices have been steadily falling since June, thanks in part to increases in wheat and corn production elsewhere in the world. Food prices had reached their highest levels since the late 1970s early in 2011.


Figure 1. The Advanced Land Imager (ALI) on NASA's Earth Observing-1 (EO-1) satellite acquired this pair of before-and-after natural-color images of Ayutthaya, Thailand, on October 23, 2011, and July 11, 2011. In both images, the Chao Phraya River curves through the outskirts of the city (north is to the left in these images). In October, however, the river has overflowed onto nearby floodplains. Fields, roads, and buildings have all been submerged by sediment-clogged flood water. Image credit: NASA Earth Observatory.

The Thailand floods in historical context
Large floods have occurred along Bangkok's Chao Phraya River in 1942, 1978, 1980, 1983, 1995, 1996, 2002, and 2006. The 1942 flood is considered to be the worst flood in modern times. Since 1942, land subsidence, sea level rise, deforestation, urbanization, and removal of wetlands have made floods more likely. However, this has been offset to a large degree by the construction of a series of dams in the upper watershed of the Chao Phraya River basin--including the Bhumibol Dam (1964) and Sirikit Dam (1971). According to wunderground's weather historian Christopher C. Burt, who blogged about the Thailand flood on October 29, the flood of 2011 rivals or exceeds the great flood of 1942 in terms of depth of the flood waters, and the 2011 Thailand flood is perhaps the greatest flood ever to swamp a city so large (population 10 million) in world history. The last time a flood of such a great magnitude affected a city so large occurred in 2004 in Dhaka, Bangladesh, which also has a population near 10 million. Dhaka was almost completely submerged in during massive monsoon floods in the summer of 2004.

The estimated $9.8 billion in damage to Thailand from the 2011 flood is nearly 4% of the country's GDP. Hurricane Katrina cost the U.S. about 0.7% of its GDP, so the Thailand floods can be thought of as a disaster five times worse than Katrina for that country. The most expensive natural disaster worldwide since 1970 in relation to a country's size and economy (for disasters with a high death toll) was the 2010 earthquake in Haiti, according to the Inter-American Development Bank. Haiti's earthquake cost $8 billion, which was 115% of Haiti's GDP. The most expensive flooding disasters in the world since 1970, relative to GDP, both occurred in Honduras. Category 5 Hurricane Mitch of 1998 did damage equivalent to 81% of GDP, and Category 3 Hurricane Fifi of 1974 cost 59% of GDP to Honduras.

Short range forecast: gradual improvement
Fortunately, the monsoon has been quiet so far in November over Thailand, and the latest GFS model precipitation forecast show little additional rain over the country during the coming week. One wild card might be the appearance of a typhoon; November typhoons often affect Thailand. However, the reliable models for predicting typhoon development are currently not forecasting any typhoon activity in the Western Pacific over the coming seven days.


Figure 2. Predicted global sea level rise for 2100 from three different studies.

Forecast for the remainder of the 21st century: more mega-floods for Bangkok
Bangkok lies in the Chao Phraya River basin, which covers about 35% of the country, and has an average elevation just 1 - 2 meters above sea level. Obviously, sea level rise, which averaged 7 inches world-wide during the 20th century, and is predicted to be at least that high during the 21st century, is a huge concern for Thailand. Loss of land due to a sea-level rise of .5 m and 1.0 m could decrease national GDP by 0.36% and 0.69% (US$300 to 600 million) per year, respectively (Ohno, 2001). Higher sea levels also block the flow of flood waters out of the Chao Phraya River, backing up these waters into the city, putting stress on levees and raising flood heights. Another major concern of climate change is the increase in rainfall expected in a warmer world. A 2010 study by the World Bank found that a global temperature rise of 1.2 - 1.9°C would likely increase precipitation over Thailand by 2 - 3%. This extra rainfall, when combined with predicted levels of sea level rise and land subsidence due to groundwater pumping, would likely make a 1-in-50 year flood occur once every fifteen years by the end of the century. Since the flood control system in Bangkok is "generally designed to protect against 1-in-30-year floods", the report concluded that "people living in Bangkok will be facing more frequent events that significantly disrupt daily life." This study assumed that sea level rise by 2100 would be what the IPCC predicted in 2007: 0.6 - 1.9 feet. A number of studies published since that report are predicting much higher levels of sea level increase: 3 - 6 feet (1 - 2 meters) by 2100. If these higher sea level rise estimates prove correct, mega-floods like the 2011 flood will occur several times per decade in Bangkok by the end of the century--unless the Thais can engineer a massive sea wall to keep the ocean at bay.

The city and national planners have plans to add further flood protection, which has been planned and budgeted through 2014. The long-term land use plan until 2057 calls for adding new buffer zones and canals to re-route flood waters. Intentional flooding of agricultural lands upstream of Bangkok during major floods will also be used to help reduce the flood profile in Bangkok.

References
Michael Lemonick of ClimateCentral.org has an op-ed in the L.A. Times called "Thailand's Heart Attack", where he shows how climate change increased the odds of the 2011 mega-flood in Thailand. He makes the point, "Increasing load of greenhouse gases we're pumping into the atmosphere doesn't 'cause' extreme weather. But it does raise the odds, just as a diet of triple bacon cheeseburgers raises the odds of heart disease."

Ohno, E., 2001: Economic evaluation of impact of land loss due to sea-level rise in Thailand. Proceedings of the APN/SURVAS/LOICZ Joint Conference on Coastal Impacts of Climate Change and Adaptation in the Asia Pacific Region, 14-16th November 2000, Kobe, Japan, Asia Pacific Network for Global Change Research, 231-235.

World Bank, 2010, Climate risks and adaptation in Asian coastal megacities: a synthesis report

Jeff Masters
Flood on Khlong 5 (Faasai)
Flood on Khlong 5
Flooded Ricefild (Faasai)
Im stey more than 50 cm in the water,and is still come.
Flooded Ricefild
Categories: Flood Climate Change
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151. bohonkweatherman 8:27 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting RitaEvac:
.60 here southeast of Buda, my dad got .60 in southwest Austin, my brother got 1.3 west of Austin and around 1 inch in Bastrop. Not great but very good for around here, the heavy rain at my house only lasted a few minutes. Ready for the next system this weekend to give us a little more rain hopefully. Ready for some colder weather now, lots of 80s forecasted around here in the near future. Hearing Florida is Hot also, hope it cools down for you.
Member Since: July 5, 2009 Posts: 0 Comments: 1348
152. RitaEvac 8:37 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting bohonkweatherman:
.60 here southeast of Buda, my dad got .60 in southwest Austin, my brother got 1.3 west of Austin and around 1 inch in Bastrop. Not great but very good for around here, the heavy rain at my house only lasted a few minutes. Ready for the next system this weekend to give us a little more rain hopefully. Ready for some colder weather now, lots of 80s forecasted around here in the near future. Hearing Florida is Hot also, hope it cools down for you.


At work here in Texas City, just sprinkles, no rain, got rain at the house up the road, but this system was a joke, expected much more widespread rains than this.

traffic cam view at the intersection in front of my building

Member Since: July 14, 2008 Posts: 1 Comments: 8874
153. Articuno 8:42 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting RitaEvac:


not quite, not too happy the way this turned out, this batch is all were gonna get apparently.

its better then nothin
just sayin
Member Since: October 22, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1926
154. StormTracker2K 8:44 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting RitaEvac:


At work here in Texas City, just sprinkles, no rain, got rain at the house up the road, but this system was a joke, expected much more widespread rains than this.

traffic cam view at the intersection in front of my building



Hey atleast you are getting some rain. Better than what you had been getting.
Member Since: October 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2651
155. StormTracker2K 8:45 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Articuno:

its better then nothin
just sayin


LOL! That's exactly what I was saying. They also have more on the way this weekend.
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156. RitaEvac 8:47 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Better than nothing for sure! now bring on the next system
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157. RitaEvac 8:50 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Got spoiled last week of the 1.52" I guess
Member Since: July 14, 2008 Posts: 1 Comments: 8874
158. StormTracker2K 8:53 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting RitaEvac:
Got spoiled last week of the 1.52" I guess


More coming but this appears to be geared for C and N TX.

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159. Articuno 8:53 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Member Since: October 22, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1926
160. Articuno 8:54 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting StormTracker2K:


More coming but this appears to be geared for C and N TX.


yayayayay
just hope it covers all of tx
Member Since: October 22, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1926
161. weatherbro 9:10 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting StormTracker2K:


More coming but this appears to be geared for C and N TX.



Today the models are back to calling for that low to carve out an EC trough next week. That low should either be an Apps runner or EC hugger(northeast). Either way, somebodies gonna get some snow from this.

This same system should give us Floridians some nice chilly weather come Thanksgiving Weekend(yesterday, a few models had a blow-torch for the southeast. thank goodness they've all backed away from that)!
Member Since: May 26, 2007 Posts: 47 Comments: 1154
162. Minnemike 9:18 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting StormTracker2K:
why would i think it a UFO? i clearly state that the supposition is electric fields rearranging ice crystals... as a result of explosive convection. you don't get an effect like that from the pulsing of air as convection builds, as pulses would not move that quickly. this is more than the lenticular capping of cumulonimbus. not by much, but a little bit more..

it seems you are passing this off more casually than the phenomena demands. i highly doubt it is simply air moving. i agree greatly with the analysis of it being an electrical field related issue (yes, resulting from explosive convection).
Member Since: July 31, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 1253
163. bohonkweatherman 9:20 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting RitaEvac:


At work here in Texas City, just sprinkles, no rain, got rain at the house up the road, but this system was a joke, expected much more widespread rains than this.

traffic cam view at the intersection in front of my building

You cannot always look at a radar and say someone is going to get 1 to 2 inches of rain especially during a drought, watching it I thought I would get 2 to 3 inches easily but the system was moving pretty fast, isolated areas did get near 2 inches between Austin and San Antonio. Rains like this will greatly decrease the chances of Texas fires.
Member Since: July 5, 2009 Posts: 0 Comments: 1348
164. sar2401 9:23 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Skyepony:


Guess you didn't read the article, it was conclusive. There's nothing used in Big-Ag that would cause your tap water to be flammable either. Natural gas isn't endless or without atmospheric & other consequences. There is more sustainable resources out there. I make electricity from the sun & wind, from cheap & in some cases recycled materials..we need not be left behind as a country, slaves to those making a killing digging up every last resource. We can come up with better..if we don't, another country will.


I read the article completely. The writer clearly has a bias, and I'd need to know more about the mining and agricultural history of the area before saying, with absolute certainty, that there was only one way for that chemical to get in the groundwater. Still, if the chemical is coming from fracking, that's one more good reason use natural gas.

I have no arguement that we need to develop less polluting and more effective forms of alternate power. However, hydrocarbon based fuel is the only reasonable alternative we have now and for at least the next few decades. The hardest thing to do is come up with an alternate fuel for vehicles. Even with electric cars, the source of electricity has to come from somewhere, and wind and solar are much too expensive right now to substitute for hydrocarbon-based fuel fire power plants. In addition, electric powered vehicles need batteries...and lots of them. If you want to see a real cesspool of dangerous chemicals, take a look at lead-acid battery construction. They last an average of two years in vehicle service, and then we have to dispose of them. It's like nuclear power. One of the biggest issues is how you get rid of the toxic waste.

Vehicles of all types consume about 65% of all our power. Natural gas, while not infinite, is available in supplies estimated to last for at least the next 200-300 years. This gives us some time to develop dependable and affordable alternate fuel sources while releasing us from slavery to nations that want to harm us. Natural gas is the cleanest burning hydrocarbon based fuel we have in abundance. Switching all vehicles and power plants to natural gas would cut the amount of CO2 we release in the atmosphere by more than half. As I said in my original post, there are dangers in using natural gas, just as there are in wind power or solar. There's no free lunch. However, we can either sit here and twiddle our thumbs waiting for a scientist to come up with the ultimate non-polluting power source or we can do something that will help immediately. Natural gas is the best alternative we have.
Member Since: October 2, 2004 Posts: 0 Comments: 1983
165. Articuno 9:36 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Minnemike:
why would i think it a UFO? i clearly state that the supposition is electric fields rearranging ice crystals... as a result of explosive convection. you don't get an effect like that from the pulsing of air as convection builds, as pulses would not move that quickly. this is more than the lenticular capping of cumulonimbus. not by much, but a little bit more..

it seems you are passing this off more casually than the phenomena demands. i highly doubt it is simply air moving. i agree greatly with the analysis of it being an electrical field related issue (yes, resulting from explosive convection).

some of the words you said i did not understand.
O.o
Member Since: October 22, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1926
166. StormTracker2K 9:44 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Minnemike:
why would i think it a UFO? i clearly state that the supposition is electric fields rearranging ice crystals... as a result of explosive convection. you don't get an effect like that from the pulsing of air as convection builds, as pulses would not move that quickly. this is more than the lenticular capping of cumulonimbus. not by much, but a little bit more..

it seems you are passing this off more casually than the phenomena demands. i highly doubt it is simply air moving. i agree greatly with the analysis of it being an electrical field related issue (yes, resulting from explosive convection).
Quoting Minnemike:
why would i think it a UFO? i clearly state that the supposition is electric fields rearranging ice crystals... as a result of explosive convection. you don't get an effect like that from the pulsing of air as convection builds, as pulses would not move that quickly. this is more than the lenticular capping of cumulonimbus. not by much, but a little bit more..

it seems you are passing this off more casually than the phenomena demands. i highly doubt it is simply air moving. i agree greatly with the analysis of it being an electrical field related issue (yes, resulting from explosive convection).


Oh OK! I just didn't understand what you were getting at. Sorry.
Member Since: October 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2651
167. StormTracker2K 9:46 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting weatherbro:


Today the models are back to calling for that low to carve out an EC trough next week. That low should either be an Apps runner or EC hugger(northeast). Either way, somebodies gonna get some snow from this.

This same system should give us Floridians some nice chilly weather come Thanksgiving Weekend(yesterday, a few models had a blow-torch for the southeast. thank goodness they've all backed away from that)!


I agree looks as if the blow torch has been turned down for the SE US next week but I wouldn't say chilly by any means either. More like 78 to 82 for highs maybe lower depending if the trough digs a little deeper along the east coast of the US.
Member Since: October 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2651
168. Minnemike 9:53 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Articuno:

some of the words you said i did not understand.
O.o
i typed most of the words, so i can see how what i spoke did not quite come through
:P
(sorry, cannot resist linguistic humor)
Member Since: July 31, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 1253
169. Skyepony (Mod) 10:03 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
sar~ Since when is chemistry, research & first hand accounts bias? Or is the EPA & locals totally untrustworthy?

Natural gas is the better bridge to renewables, I agree there. But all this it's too expensive, we don't have the technology is bull. Big oil has bought & shelved the future & are suing the crap out of renewables if they hold out. Laws to keep all the power in a few hands have been arranged. Energy is being run by monopolies that want to keep us on something they can extract & sell. If we could sell extra electricity to the grid at a fair price & had plentiful USA manufactures of panels & such..we could be on our way to home owners getting a piece of the energy income. Germany has gone from 6.3% renewable energy sources in 2000 to 20% this year...we could have done that too. We are trailing at 14% this year & that includes ethanol which has too many depleting effect to be sustainable (enlarged gulf dead zone, causing rain to contain roundup which lowers yields of other crops & all the energy used to grow a fertilized, pesticided, herbicided crop).
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 144 Comments: 29234
170. Some1Has2BtheRookie 10:16 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting sar2401:


I read the article completely. The writer clearly has a bias, and I'd need to know more about the mining and agricultural history of the area before saying, with absolute certainty, that there was only one way for that chemical to get in the groundwater. Still, if the chemical is coming from fracking, that's one more good reason use natural gas.

I have no arguement that we need to develop less polluting and more effective forms of alternate power. However, hydrocarbon based fuel is the only reasonable alternative we have now and for at least the next few decades. The hardest thing to do is come up with an alternate fuel for vehicles. Even with electric cars, the source of electricity has to come from somewhere, and wind and solar are much too expensive right now to substitute for hydrocarbon-based fuel fire power plants. In addition, electric powered vehicles need batteries...and lots of them. If you want to see a real cesspool of dangerous chemicals, take a look at lead-acid battery construction. They last an average of two years in vehicle service, and then we have to dispose of them. It's like nuclear power. One of the biggest issues is how you get rid of the toxic waste.

Vehicles of all types consume about 65% of all our power. Natural gas, while not infinite, is available in supplies estimated to last for at least the next 200-300 years. This gives us some time to develop dependable and affordable alternate fuel sources while releasing us from slavery to nations that want to harm us. Natural gas is the cleanest burning hydrocarbon based fuel we have in abundance. Switching all vehicles and power plants to natural gas would cut the amount of CO2 we release in the atmosphere by more than half. As I said in my original post, there are dangers in using natural gas, just as there are in wind power or solar. There's no free lunch. However, we can either sit here and twiddle our thumbs waiting for a scientist to come up with the ultimate non-polluting power source or we can do something that will help immediately. Natural gas is the best alternative we have.


We need to find something else besides oil and other carbon based fuels:

Energy Costs Will Rise Viciously - This article presses the need for atomic power usage and to get completely away from all hydrocarbon based fuels. ... Well, I am not certain that nuclear is a viable approach either but, that is another topic for discussion.

Should "fracking" pose a real threat to our drinking water, and I believe that it does based on what I have learned, then we need to avoid this as much as we need to avoid any carbon based energy source. What good does it do to have a 200 - 300 year natural gas supply if it contaminated our drinking waters within 100 - 150 years?

Alternative energy sources are going to become cost effective within a short time. This will be due to better and faster production methods, volume selling and because carbon based fuels will become very costly. Carbon fuels are already extremely costly when you weigh in their total costs across all aspects associated with using them.
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
171. Some1Has2BtheRookie 10:22 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Skyepony:
sar~ Since when is chemistry, research & first hand accounts bias? Or is the EPA & locals totally untrustworthy?

Natural gas is the better bridge to renewables, I agree there. But all this it's too expensive, we don't have the technology is bull. Big oil has bought & shelved the future & are suing the crap out of renewables if they hold out. Laws to keep all the power in a few hands have been arranged. Energy is being run by monopolies that want to keep us on something they can extract & sell. If we could sell extra electricity to the grid at a fair price & had plentiful USA manufactures of panels & such..we could be on our way to home owners getting a piece of the energy income. Germany has gone from 6.3% renewable energy sources in 2000 to 20% this year...we could have done that too. We are trailing at 14% this year & that includes ethanol which has too many depleting effect to be sustainable (enlarged gulf dead zone, causing rain to contain roundup which lowers yields of other crops & all the energy used to grow a fertilized, pesticided, herbicided crop).


Big Oil does not want renewable energy sources until they can control them. You can take that to the bank.
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172. Some1Has2BtheRookie 10:34 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Cold Blue to Dr. Master's blog! Bring a crash cart!

Darn! I killed the blog again!
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
173. Articuno 10:42 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:
Cold Blue to Dr. Master's blog! Bring a crash cart!

Darn! I killed the blog again!

you killed it again...
Member Since: October 22, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1926
174. PlazaRed 10:46 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
The last few comments on energy and what form its main source contributors will be to the future of humanity is going to occupy more and more time in the coming years.
The main thread will probably always be the problem with alternatives for fueling transportation. In an ideal world a transition to renewable's would be simple but time consuming process, unfortunately with the vast and increasing number of vehicles on the worlds roads and the resistance to paying out beyond the minimum for a large proportion of people will in my opinion limit the number of vehicles using alternative energy to a very low percentage.
The only solution to this will be legislation which may in itself encounter insurmountable resistance from all sides with vested interests.
Again in my opinion the only way to convert to renewable's will be brought about by a fear of what will happen if we Don't.
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175. Some1Has2BtheRookie 10:49 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Articuno:

you killed it again...


Wait! There is still a sign of life! Clear! zap!
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
176. PlazaRed 11:16 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


Wait! There is still a sign of life! Clear! zap!

It's probably, artificial intelligence at this time of the day!
Member Since: January 21, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1442
177. JNCali 11:20 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Funny being 'downwind' from TX now that I'm in the Nashville area... Been incredibley mild the last 3 days with DT highs in the 70's NT lows in the 50's.. supposed to drop into the 30's tomorrow night though.. got our first rotating T-storm heading our way.. we'll see how the kids deal with the light and sound show..
have a nice evening everyone...
JNTenn
Member Since: September 9, 2010 Posts: 5 Comments: 1022
178. sar2401 11:36 PM GMT on November 15, 2011    
Quoting Skyepony:
sar~ Since when is chemistry, research & first hand accounts bias? Or is the EPA & locals totally untrustworthy?

Natural gas is the better bridge to renewables, I agree there. But all this it's too expensive, we don't have the technology is bull. Big oil has bought & shelved the future & are suing the crap out of renewables if they hold out. Laws to keep all the power in a few hands have been arranged. Energy is being run by monopolies that want to keep us on something they can extract & sell. If we could sell extra electricity to the grid at a fair price & had plentiful USA manufactures of panels & such..we could be on our way to home owners getting a piece of the energy income. Germany has gone from 6.3% renewable energy sources in 2000 to 20% this year...we could have done that too. We are trailing at 14% this year & that includes ethanol which has too many depleting effect to be sustainable (enlarged gulf dead zone, causing rain to contain roundup which lowers yields of other crops & all the energy used to grow a fertilized, pesticided, herbicided crop).


Skye, I do indeed believe that EPA is not trustworthy. We lived about a quarter mile from a plant that made contact lenses. Over a period of twenty years, they contaminated the groundwater that we were drinking with all sorts of benzine compounds and derivatives. Both the state of California and the EPA minimized the problem and lied about the risks to the public. My late wife, who lived a very healthy lifestyle, including drinking lots of water, got acute myelogenous leukemia in 2003 and died of it in 2004, at the age of 58. She had no other risk factors except the contaminated drinking water. She has an identical twin sister. Her twin, who lives in Ohio, is still alive and in good health today, so an evironmental factor is the only explanation, the contaminated drinking water being the logical culprit. I still have pending complaints with California and the EPA over thier "science". The contact lense company just filed for bankruptcy when the leukemia outbreak occured, so they are off the hook. As you can see, I have good reason to doubt reports, especially from the EPA, and I'm certainly no supporter of any company deliberately fouling the enivironment.

Unfortunately, solar and wind power are still too expensive to be used on a wide scale. I'd be interested in how exactly Germany defined "renewables", since that can take in a lot of questionable items, but the big issue is still powering vehicles. Even if we went to 100% solar and wind for residental power, we'd only reduce our hydrocarbon use by about 18%. There are cheaper and more effective things we can do right now, and they can be done by executive order. As an example, if all houses built in the future were required to use 12 volt power for lighting and small appliances, and we gave tax incentives to people to convert their homes to 12 volt power, we could save almost as much hyrocarbon fuel use as using residental solar power, at its current cost. We could also mandate the use of natural gas in all future vehicles, which can be done at an added cost of only about $100 for a new vehicle. Again, we could use tax incentives to get people to convert their current vehicles to natural gas. Since natural gas works out to about $1.35 per gallon, the savings in what we pay for gas could be used to build out the infrastructure for natural gas refueling stations. Oil companies will sell anything they can make a profit on, and could care less if it's solar, natural gas, or oil. We need to get a coherent national energy plan and start moving people away from imported oil ASAP. Small changes are cheaper and have a better chance of working than a big revolution. Whatever we do, we need to start now, not at some hazy point in the future, when the magic bullet appears.
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179. Skyepony (Mod) 12:23 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
sar ~So because the EPA is saying they are finding the fracking cancer causing chemicals in the drinking water..it's probably not true, even with the residents saying fracking has caused their water to smell like gasoline & they've been told not to drink or cook with it & to air out their house after showering?

Sorry for your loss, lost a sister to the same..thanks to an AirForce Base..pollution kills..fracking is pollution.

Colorado law like most have a loop hoop with no disclosure required on what chemicals are being used for fracking. You can inject any waste chemical into the earth & call it a trade secret formula..anything goes in polluting fracking style.

em>The fact that natural gas is a bridge fuel to nowhere was first shown by the International Energy Agency in its big June report on gas %u2014 see IEA%u2019s %u201CGolden Age of Gas Scenario%u201D Leads to More Than 6°F Warming and Out-of-Control Climate Change. That study %u2014 which had both coal and oil consumption peaking in 2020 %u2014 made abundantly clear that if we want to avoid catastrophic warming, we need to start getting off of all fossil fuels.

You seem really caught up in pushing natural gas.

It's not all that & to say nothing will compete with it dollar for dollar..the day is coming sooner than you might think.

em>The best wind farms in the world are already competitive with coal, gas and nuclear plants. But over the next five years, continued performance improvements and cost reductions will bring the average onshore wind plant in line with cheap natural gas, even without a price on carbon, according analysis from Bloomberg New Energy Finance.
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 144 Comments: 29234
180. KoritheMan 12:24 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'll be here for a bit.
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 408 Comments: 15417
181. sar2401 12:28 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


We need to find something else besides oil and other carbon based fuels:

Energy Costs Will Rise Viciously - This article presses the need for atomic power usage and to get completely away from all hydrocarbon based fuels. ... Well, I am not certain that nuclear is a viable approach either but, that is another topic for discussion.

Should "fracking" pose a real threat to our drinking water, and I believe that it does based on what I have learned, then we need to avoid this as much as we need to avoid any carbon based energy source. What good does it do to have a 200 - 300 year natural gas supply if it contaminated our drinking waters within 100 - 150 years?

Alternative energy sources are going to become cost effective within a short time. This will be due to better and faster production methods, volume selling and because carbon based fuels will become very costly. Carbon fuels are already extremely costly when you weigh in their total costs across all aspects associated with using them.


As the article points out, natural gas is the only form of energy, other than nuclear, that meets the objective of reducing hydrocarbon emmisions while the demand for power continues to rise. By far, the cheapest and most accesible fuel is coal, and China burns about a half of the world's coal, since it is their largest source of hydrocarbons. I'm not aware of fracking being in widespread use for any other purpose than extracting oil or natural gas from coal methane beds, or CBM's. Most natural gas flows upward naturally from natural hydraulic fracturing. e.g, faults and vein structures. The biggest issue from natural gas extraction is the methane emmisons from drilling operations, but there are already operations under way that reduce methane emmisions from about 7% to 1%. Again, I'm not aware of any widespread incidents of natural gas extraction causing groundwater contamination, although I'm sure there are some. That can also be drastically reduced by better drilling methods and closer monitoring of the changes in groundwater supply chemicals. There are risks and benefits to using any energy source, and the ones that we'll use are the cheapest and easiest to get. As we reach the times of peak oil, other forms of energy will become competitive as oil prices rise. It's then we'll see a concerted move towards other forms of energy. Without draconian increases in taxes, there's no other way for alternatives to hydrocarbons being competitive in the near future.
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182. HadesGodWyvern 12:37 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Fiji Meteorological Services
Tropical Disturbance Summary
TROPICAL DISTURBANCE 01F
9:00 AM FST November 16 2011
======================================

At 21:00 PM UTC, Tropical Disturbance 01 (1006 hPa) located near 19.0S 179.5W is reported as moving southeast at 10 knots. Position fair based on multisatellite visible with animation and surface observations. Sea surface temperature is around 28C.

Organization remains poor. Convection has decreased significantly in the past 24 hours. Cyclonic circulation extends from surface up to 700 HPA. TD 01F lies under a 250 HPA diffluent region along a surface trough in a moderate to high sheared environment. The disturbance is being steered southeast by a weak northwesterly deep layer mean wind

Most models have picked up the system and slowly moves it southeast with slight intensification.

The potential for this tropical disturbance to form into a significant tropical cyclone within the next 24-48 hours is LOW.
Member Since: May 24, 2006 Posts: 43 Comments: 36682
183. Skyepony (Mod) 12:43 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    


Princeton researchers found for the first time that day-to-day weather conditions have become more erratic in the past generation. Days have increasingly fluctuated between sunny and dry, and cloudy and rainy with little in-between, which can have negative consequences for ecosystems, plants, solar-energy production and other factors that depend upon consistent weather. Green areas on this map indicate an increase in day-to-day solar radiation (sunshine) variability between 1984 and 2007; pink indicates a decrease. The portion over the Indian Ocean is voided due to a lack of consistent data. (Credit: Image courtesy of David Medvigy)
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 144 Comments: 29234
184. FrankZapper 12:57 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Let me tell all you greenies something.

Our future lies with advanced technologies that rely on energy from the atom and gravity.

You never see civilizations relying on wind or solar for too much of their energy needs in science fiction and science fiction portends science fact.

Take your Whole Earth Catalogs and grey ponytails and wake up to reality.
Member Since: May 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1193
185. Articuno 1:04 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting KoritheMan:
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'll be here for a bit.

What's up?
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186. KoritheMan 1:10 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting Articuno:

What's up?


Since I have the next two days off, I'm busy furnishing my report on the hurricane season.
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 408 Comments: 15417
187. SPLbeater 1:30 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Global warming is a buncha bullcrap. half a degree in 50 years dont mean nothin. :D
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 43 Comments: 3953
188. KoritheMan 1:30 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting SPLbeater:
Global warming is a buncha bullcrap. half a degree in 50 years dont mean nothin. :D


trollface.jpg?
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 408 Comments: 15417
189. SPLbeater 1:30 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Of course, thats MY view....
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 43 Comments: 3953
190. SPLbeater 1:33 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting KoritheMan:


trollface.jpg?


i isnt a troll. im bored with no tropics stirring, lol. Just putting my opinion out there, if u doesnt like it tell me and i wont post it :)
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 43 Comments: 3953
191. KoritheMan 1:41 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting SPLbeater:


i isnt a troll. im bored with no tropics stirring, lol. Just putting my opinion out there, if u doesnt like it tell me and i wont post it :)


I can't tell you not to post your opinion.
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 408 Comments: 15417
192. SPLbeater 1:56 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting KoritheMan:


I can't tell you not to post your opinion.


lol. well...thats curtious, but sometimes i need to be scolded xD

like before i knew hardly anything bout weather, i ws wishin for a Cat 4 to make landfall on NC coast so i could experience that. then i grew up have more sense now and think myself as a fool then LOL.
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 43 Comments: 3953
193. FrankZapper 1:59 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Hey,Kori.

I see your into the GW morass.

What I want to know is where did all this DRY AIR come from that nobody forecasted and hindered the development of most systems this year?
Member Since: May 26, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1193
194. Skyepony (Mod) 2:13 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting FrankZapper:
Let me tell all you greenies something.

Our future lies with advanced technologies that rely on energy from the atom and gravity.

You never see civilizations relying on wind or solar for too much of their energy needs in science fiction and science fiction portends science fact.

Take your Whole Earth Catalogs and grey ponytails and wake up to reality.


I agree.. But we need to get off fossil fuel now, thermo, solar, wind & efficiency are a better bridge then Natural Gas but something more like fusion or like Tesla's Tower should take the cake. I've been following the laser fusion place east of San Fransisco. They'd hoped to have it by last summer & are now projecting by the end of this fiscal year. At one point their funding was very much threatened, big oil tried putting an end to it. Here's recent happening around the world with different types of fusion.


& how about that drought over much of S Africa, TX & the midwest..drought makes dry air.
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 144 Comments: 29234
195. Neapolitan 2:20 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Methane is a big problem with natural gas, true. As are CO2 emissions. As is groundwater pollution from fracking fluids. As is air pollution from drillers and transportation. As is landscape destruction. And so on. IOW, natural gas is no panacea. It may be better than, say, coal, but that's hardly a stellar recommendation.

It's true that at the moment alternative energy sources are behind. Way behind, even. But they are catching up, and rapidly. The biggest obstacles to progress toward our eventual move toward alternate energy are neither technological nor financial: they're political, and they're thrown up by those hoping to maintain the fossil fuel-only paradigm for as long as possible for the purpose of profit. They may momentarily stall the switch. But reality always wins. Always. And in not too many year from now, our descendants will look back on our generation's myopic fascination with fossil fuels the way we look back at those ancestors of ours who used to kill whales for lamp oil: in disbelief at the utterly illogical shortsightedness some humans are capable of displaying.

The longer we drag our feet and pretend that gas and oil and coal are unlimited and aren't contributing to the disruption of our bisophere, the worse the switch will be for us when it comes--which it will. It seems to me it's better to do it now while we have some say in the matter than later when we won't.
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196. KoritheMan 2:20 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting SPLbeater:


lol. well...thats curtious, but sometimes i need to be scolded xD

like before i knew hardly anything bout weather, i ws wishin for a Cat 4 to make landfall on NC coast so i could experience that. then i grew up have more sense now and think myself as a fool then LOL.


Meh. To me there is no shame in wanting to experience nature at its strongest. That shouldn't come at the expense of empathy, though.
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 408 Comments: 15417
197. KoritheMan 2:21 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting FrankZapper:
Hey,Kori.

I see your into the GW morass.

What I want to know is where did all this DRY AIR come from that nobody forecasted and hindered the development of most systems this year?


I think it has a lot to do with the Saharan Air Layer.
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 408 Comments: 15417
198. spathy 2:26 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting Skyepony:


I agree.. But we need to get off fossil fuel now, thermo, solar, wind & efficiency are a better bridge then Natural Gas but something more like fusion or like <


What ever happened to hydrogen fuel.

Wasnt natural gas a step stone towards its viability?

Member Since: June 8, 2008 Posts: 65 Comments: 10473
199. Chicklit 2:32 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Link posted by Sherwood cool; I've lived in Florida since 1984 and have never witnessed that.
Link

Meteorologist Joel Gratz offers an explanation:

The answer lies in this: ice crystals, especially long needles, tend to become aligned with the ambient electric field.

So what you are seeing is sunlight reflecting off ice crystal faces that are constantly being oriented by the developing electric field just above the [cumulonimbus] top. Then there is a discharge in the cloud, and the field collapses momentarily, and the crystals begin to realign again. Then this just keeps happening over and over.
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200. spathy 2:35 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
199. Chicklit 2:32 AM GMT on November 16, 2011 Hide this comment.
Link posted by Sherwood cool; I've lived in Florida since 1984 and have never witnessed that.


I agree that was way cool.
And I actually understood the explanation.

Thanks Sherwood.
Member Since: June 8, 2008 Posts: 65 Comments: 10473
201. Neapolitan 2:37 AM GMT on November 16, 2011    
Quoting Chicklit:
Link posted by Sherwood cool; I've lived in Florida since 1984 and have never witnessed that.
Link

Meteorologist Joel Gratz offers an explanation:

The answer lies in this: ice crystals, especially long needles, tend to become aligned with the ambient electric field.

So what you are seeing is sunlight reflecting off ice crystal faces that are constantly being oriented by the developing electric field just above the [cumulonimbus] top. Then there is a discharge in the cloud, and the field collapses momentarily, and the crystals begin to realign again. Then this just keeps happening over and over.

Precisely. Kinda like a giant LCD. And it's an awe-inspiring sight IRL.
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About JeffMasters
Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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