Dr. Ricky Rood's Climate Change Blog

Is this year what we can expect?
Posted by: Dr. Ricky Rood, 6:38 PM GMT on August 03, 2011 +11
Is this year what we can expect?

In recent weeks a question I have been asked often, “is this year, the last couple of years, like what we can expect in the future?” The question is often asked quietly, perhaps by a planner, say, someone worried about water in their city. The question follows from not only a perception that the weather is getting “weird,”, but also some small aspect of experience in their job. For example, a water manager recently said they were seeing their local river showing a distinct change to sporadically high flow in the winter, smaller spring flows, and extremely small flow late in the summer. Is this what I should expect in the future? The short answer is yes.

This question of expectation has rolled around in my head for years. I am a gardener with aspirations for small farmer. Over the last 30 years, I have definitely pushed my planting earlier in the year. When I was in Maryland, I felt wet, cool Mays were becoming the “norm,” with my tomatoes sitting in sodden soil. At the same time I would recall plots I had seen in some recent presentation that showed modeled shifts in the warm-cold patterns suggesting springtime cooling in northeastern North America. These are the sorts of casual correlations that lead people to think are we seeing a new “normal.”

In 2008 I wrote a blog about the changes in the hardiness zones that are reported on the back of seed packages. These are the maps that tell us the last frost date, and there were big changes between 1990 and 2006. These changes in the seed packets caught the attention of a lot of people. Recently, NOAA published the “new normal.” This normal relies on the definition of climate as a 30 year average. (AMS Glossary) What was done - at the completion of the decade NOAA recalculated a 30 year average. That is, 1981-2010 rather than 1971-2000. This average changed a lot, with notable warming of nighttime minima. There was some regional reduction of summertime maxima; that is, cooling. All in all, the average temperature went up, with most of the increase in nighttime minimum, a fact that is consistent with both model simulations and fundamental physics. This also came with another update of those hardiness zones.

When trying to interpret climate information and determining how has climate changed and how will it change, the combination of observations, fundamental physics, and models provide three sources of information. The combination of this information and the determination of the quality of that information is subject to interpretation. In the case of determining whether or not we are already experiencing the climate of warming world and how that change will be realized in the next decades it depends on how we use the models.

In my previous entry on heat waves, I implied how to use these pieces of information together. There are fundamental physics in the relationship between temperature and moisture in the air; hot air holds more water; warm water evaporates more quickly. The question of the model is - how well does the model represent the movement of that moisture? For the heat wave example, it is important how well do the models represent persistent high pressure systems over North America in the summer? Are these high pressure systems represented well by the models for the right reasons? The answer to the model question has a range of answers. The model does represent these systems, but if you are an expert in summertime persistent high pressure systems, then you can provide a long list of inadequacies. How can we glean information about the quality of the model? If we look at weather models, then we were able to predict the heat wave – even with the inadequacies that the expert or skeptic can list. Returning to the climate model, do we see like events in the current climate, and do these events change as the planet warms? The answer is yes. Then can we use this to guide our development of plans to adapt to climate change? The answer is yes, if we can connect the model back to data and the fundamental physics. This does become a matter of interpretation – how strong or weak is that connection?

The more I work with planners the more I hear the need for interpretive information, expert guidance, advisories about climate and climate change. People start with the notion that they want digital data from climate models that looks like current weather data. Once presented with 1) the logistical challenges of using that data, 2) the complex nature of the uncertainties associated with that data, and 3) the relative importance of climate to other parts of their decision package – once presented with these facts, they move to the need for advice. This makes sense - most of us want a narrative weather forecast, rather than model output. And the models play the same role in the use of weather forecasts as they do in climate projection. The models guide our thinking, with the ultimate forecast based on that guidance refined by observations and fundamental physics.

This entry started with the question I hear more and more – is this year what we can expect more of in the future? I have a mantra which is that on average the surface of the Earth will warm, ice will melt, sea level will rise, and the weather will change. What we are seeing here is weather changing in a warming, more energy laden, environment. The extraordinary extremes that we have seen in the last year and are seeing this year are quite solidly connected to both fundamental physics and the guidance from climate and weather models. Hence, my answer, as I walk around my garden, thinking how to get better tomatoes next year, thinking about my irrigation system in my doddering retirement, is yes, what we are seeing this year tells me about what to expect in a future that is relevant to me - not something far off.

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101. atmoaggie 5:45 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting streamtracker:


Well if you are going to rely on argument from authority and not logic, then

The subject matter is the carbon cycle, not atmospheric physics. It remains to be seen whether he has mastered that topic. His CV is void of any papers on the topic. As with any smart researcher, he's not infallible.

Many others, who are experts on the carbon cycle, have developed complex models that take into account many factors for the movement of C in and out of various sinks and sources. And as I stated before, there are several independent lines of empirical evidence that CO2 increases are anthropogenic.

Salby has presented a simple regression model at a talk at one conference. He presented no empirical evidence to support his claim or what people are claiming he's claiming.

If he got his math right, then the next line of research will be to empirically support test his hypothesis, by looking at sources and sinks, and explaining why the isotope and o2/n2 data got it wrong. That is if we don't want to jump to conclusions before his idea is thoroughly investigated. Until then we go with the tested lines of evidence we already have. I wouldn't jump to conclusions based on a simple untested model and unpublished model.

I wouldn't get all dressed up for the ball quite yet.
? What conclusions?

I haven't had the chance to see said podcast, or even read all there is about what he said...

All I said, generally, is that he is very qualified. And yes, his 1996 textbook is rife with Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere.

Here is a transcribe from the index of his text (which sits before me):
Carbon Dioxide (CO2)
absorption by, 200, 201, 203, 216-217, 232, 244
greenhouse effect 249-250, 252
line broadening, 224
LW radiation, 46, 242
as trace constituent, 22-25
(and the above is only for the parts that contain CO2; the greenhouse gases section is much larger)

But, where do you get off putting all of the above into what I said? Did you learn this from JFLORALA?

Here is my post, for reference:
Quoting atmoaggie:
Interesting.

His "Fundamentals of Atmospheric Physics" textbook was use for our senior atmo physics course at A&M. If he wrote that book, I can say he's no dummy...and certainly knows far more about the subject matter than any of us, here, ever will.
Member Since: August 16, 2007 Posts: 6 Comments: 12461
102. nymore 5:50 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Whether or not the conclusion is right. Always remember this the consensus of the majority in any theory or idea is always proven false by the minority. I may have 1000 papers written for the majority and only 1 written for the minority and the 1 paper makes the 1000 papers obsolete. This has been proven many many times. Dismissing something out of hand may prove to be your fatal mistake.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
103. PurpleDrank 5:52 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Whether or not the conclusion is right. Always remember this the consensus of the majority in any theory or idea is always proven false by the minority. I may have 1000 papers written for the majority and only 1 written for the minority and the 1 paper makes the 1000 papers obsolete. This has been proven many many times. Dismissing something out of hand may prove to be your fatal mistake.


too bad that philosophy doesn't work for economics on the government level.

Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
104. streamtracker 6:00 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:
Looks the the public is a lot more astute than the warmists would have you believe. They know manipulation when they see it:

Link


Or they don't know manipulation when they don't see it.

Rassmussen is well known to have results that trend toward conservative viewpoints and have been criticized for using leading questions.

So, what have other recent surveys shown, Gallup and here.

The second one deals with a trust questions also.
Member Since: October 24, 2005 Posts: 12 Comments: 1730
105. streamtracker 6:21 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting atmoaggie:
? What conclusions?

I haven't had the chance to see said podcast, or even read all there is about what he said...

All I said, generally, is that he is very qualified. And yes, his 1996 textbook is rife with Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere.

Here is a transcribe from the index of his text (which sits before me):
Carbon Dioxide (CO2)
absorption by, 200, 201, 203, 216-217, 232, 244
greenhouse effect 249-250, 252
line broadening, 224
LW radiation, 46, 242
as trace constituent, 22-25
(and the above is only for the parts that contain CO2; the greenhouse gases section is much larger)

But, where do you get off putting all of the above into what I said? Did you learn this from JFLORALA?

Here is my post, for reference:


My comments are never just aimed at the quoted commenter (if they were I'd be spending most of my time trying to move unmovable objects without access to an irresistible force), but are rather aimed at providing information for all readers of the blog, and you can just as well read my "you" for "those that would". Glad to know you wouldn't, but you know there are those who will.

If your going to throw his textbook out there, I will qualify it in the context of the paper we are discussing.

I can read index's too, and the index has no entry under carbon cycle. Greenhouse gases get's 5 pages in a approximately 600 page book (from TOC) and I was able to read greenhouse section online and it does not deal with the carbon cycle, which is the topic of the paper we are discussing.

So I stand by my assertion that based on his research pubs and this textbook, the carbon cycle is not his forte.

He's obviously a brilliant scientist, and it will be interesting to see how this story unfolds. But, like I said before even if he got the regression right, there are several others steps that need to happen before his hypothesis is confirmed. Least of which is getting this paper passed peer-review.

And again, this comment is aimed at readers in general, not just you Atmo.
Member Since: October 24, 2005 Posts: 12 Comments: 1730
106. cyclonebuster 7:42 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
This can weaken a hurricane from a cat 5 to a cat3 as per Hugh Willoughby.
Link
Link
Link

Link


quote:
Yes, I have spoken with Patrick, and, yes, a scheme somewhat like the one he describes could weaken hurricanes threatening places like Miami that have strong western-margin currents just offshore. There are, however, numerous qualifications.

The scheme that we discussed involved an array of several rows devices across the Gulfstream. Each device would be a rectangular duct 140 m long and 10 by 14 m in cross section. Normally the devices would be moored horizontally at a depth of 100m with their long axes aligned with the current flow. They would be nearly neutrally buoyant. When a hurricane approached, ballast at the downstream end of the channel would be released, allowing the device to float up to a 45 deg angle. Cold water entering the upstream end would flow up to the surface and mix with the warmer water there. Since the mixture would be negatively buoyant, it would sink. But mixing due to several (3-10) lines of these devices could cool the surface waters of the Gulfstream by 1-2C, enough to weaken an Andrew-like hurricane from category 5 to category 3. A rough calculation indicates that a device every 100 m on each line of moorings (~1000 devices per ~100 km line) and 3-10 lines of moorings would be required. My guess is that it would cost $250K to fabricate and deploy a single device, but there might be economies of scale. One might also be able to optimize the size and spacing of the devices.

Let's say that careful calculation told us that 4 lines of 1000 devices each would do the trick. At $0.25M per device, the cost works out to 4*1000*($0.25M) = $1000M. The actual cost might range from a few hundred million to a small multiple of a (US = 1000M) billion. One would want to do a detailed simulation before defining the scope of the project, but the basic notion is conversion of some of the kinetic energy of the Gulfstream into gravitational potential energy of the mixed water column. Again, I've not done that detailed simulation, only back-of-the-envelope calculations.

Activation of the array would require accurate forecasting since it would take several days for the effect to make its way from south of the Dry Tortugas (optimum location for protecting the maximum amount of shoreline) to the landfall point.

South Florida gets hit by a category 4 or 5 hurricane at every few years, but the really damaging ones like Andrew tend to be once-a-generation events, or less frequent. The array would need to be deployed and maintained for a long time between activations that actually safeguard property, although false alarms would not be particularly costly. Annual maintenance could easily exceed 10% of initial deployment cost. Bear in mind that Key West to Jacksonville is the only stretch of US coastline where this strategy would work. The other vulnerable sites, Houston-Galveston and New Orleans, lack the necessary strong offshore currents. While Georgia and the Carolinas also experience many hurricane landfalls and have the Gulfstream offshore, most of these cyclones are already weakening because of vertical shear of the horizontal wind so that a second installation north of Jacksonville would be much less useful.

There has been a lot of talk about using wave and current energy to cool the ocean ahead of hurricanes. My general conclusion is that while these ideas might be made to work, the proponents underestimate the scope of the required effort, as well as the political will and recurring cost necessary to keep the project going in the long intervals between really damaging hurricanes. Skeptic that I am, I think that wiser land-use policy and more rigorous building standards are much more cost-effective and more politically feasible. A proof-of-concept that might entail deploying a half dozen devices has some appeal, but I think that there are more promising ways to spend disaster-prevention money.

Best regards,

Hugh Willoughby


Since they can weaken hurricanes from a Cat5 to a Cat3 then they can also restore our Arctci Ice.



Ice-free Arctic could bring benefits, climate scientist says

The Arctic will be practically ice-free during the summer within three decades, the top U.S. ice observer says. But climate change could bring some good with the bad, he adds.

"I'm a climate scientist, but I'm also a realist on this," said Mark Serreze, director of the National Snow and Ice Data Center.

Arctic sea ice is disappearing a little more each summer. It shrank in July to the least coverage that satellites have ever recorded for that month, measurements show.

"This is just part and parcel of the decline that we've seen in the overall ice extent because the Arctic is warming up," Serreze said.

Average ice extent was 3.06 million square miles, 81,000 square miles below the previous record low (2007) and 842,000 square miles below average, according the data center. The center operates out of the University of Colorado at Boulder with support from NASA.

Satellite records date to 1979, but observations by ship and plane go back to the 1950s, Serreze said. July's ice coverage "is certainly the lowest in oh, the last 50 or 60 years that we have reliable records for," he said.

The oldest ice in the Arctic, which tends to be the thickest and most resistant to melting, is declining, data center scientists said.

The overall ice coverage declined rapidly in the first half of July but slowed in the second half as weather patterns changed, Serreze said. Now they seem to be changing back again. By the time the melting season ends in September, the ice coverage could be among the lowest three or four ever, he said.

"The Arctic is the heat sink of the Northern Hemisphere," Serreze said. "The ice cover is highly reflective. If you lose that ice cover, you change the heat budget of the Arctic."

That changed budget is likely to affect weather patterns below the Arctic, and ultimately the overall climate, he said.

"This is man-made; there seems to be little doubt in that," Serreze said. "It would be reversible if we were to do something about our carbon dioxide emissions, (but) I don't see much of a fat chance in hell we're going to see any change here. We're going to have to adapt."

Climate change will have some serious consequences, Serreze acknowledged: rising sea levels, loss of habitat for Arctic fauna, drinking water shortages, territorial disputes over newly open waters and more. But there will be some real benefits, he said.

Warmer winters and springs will extend growing seasons and even allow farming to happen in places where it hadn't before, Serreze said.

Another benefit of the retreating ice is increased navigation. A tanker set sail from Murmansk, Russia, on June 29 and completed a crossing of the Kara and Barents seas on July 14, according to the data center. The same company plans to send six or seven more ships along the same route this summer.

"We will adapt, because we have to," Serreze said.


http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/05/arctic-ice-a t-record-low-for-july/
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
107. Patrap 7:45 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    

South-Central U.S. continues to bake

The extreme heat continues again today after 269 high maximum and 250 high minimum temperature records were set yesterday, 19 and 29 of which were all-time records, respectively. 206 of yesterday's records were 110°F or higher. Yesterday, Reuters was reporting that Texas was one power plant shutdown away from rolling blackouts. The forecast today doesn't look any better. Heat index values up to 125° are forecast in eastern Texas and the Lower Mississippi Valley.

Particularly toasty heat index values from yesterday:

• Mobile, Alabama: 120°
• Arkadelphia, Arkansas: 121°
• Bay St. Louis, Mississippi: 121°
• Memphis, Tennessee: 122°

Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 371 Comments: 111403
108. cyclonebuster 8:00 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Hello Mcfly!! Are you listening to what the good doctor is saying here?

quote:
Yes, I have spoken with Patrick, and, yes, a scheme somewhat like the one he describes could weaken hurricanes threatening places like Miami that have strong western-margin currents just offshore. There are, however, numerous qualifications.

The scheme that we discussed involved an array of several rows devices across the Gulfstream. Each device would be a rectangular duct 140 m long and 10 by 14 m in cross section. Normally the devices would be moored horizontally at a depth of 100m with their long axes aligned with the current flow. They would be nearly neutrally buoyant. When a hurricane approached, ballast at the downstream end of the channel would be released, allowing the device to float up to a 45 deg angle. Cold water entering the upstream end would flow up to the surface and mix with the warmer water there. Since the mixture would be negatively buoyant, it would sink. But mixing due to several (3-10) lines of these devices could cool the surface waters of the Gulfstream by 1-2C, enough to weaken an Andrew-like hurricane from category 5 to category 3. A rough calculation indicates that a device every 100 m on each line of moorings (~1000 devices per ~100 km line) and 3-10 lines of moorings would be required. My guess is that it would cost $250K to fabricate and deploy a single device, but there might be economies of scale. One might also be able to optimize the size and spacing of the devices.

Let's say that careful calculation told us that 4 lines of 1000 devices each would do the trick. At $0.25M per device, the cost works out to 4*1000*($0.25M) = $1000M. The actual cost might range from a few hundred million to a small multiple of a (US = 1000M) billion. One would want to do a detailed simulation before defining the scope of the project, but the basic notion is conversion of some of the kinetic energy of the Gulfstream into gravitational potential energy of the mixed water column. Again, I've not done that detailed simulation, only back-of-the-envelope calculations.

Activation of the array would require accurate forecasting since it would take several days for the effect to make its way from south of the Dry Tortugas (optimum location for protecting the maximum amount of shoreline) to the landfall point.

South Florida gets hit by a category 4 or 5 hurricane at every few years, but the really damaging ones like Andrew tend to be once-a-generation events, or less frequent. The array would need to be deployed and maintained for a long time between activations that actually safeguard property, although false alarms would not be particularly costly. Annual maintenance could easily exceed 10% of initial deployment cost. Bear in mind that Key West to Jacksonville is the only stretch of US coastline where this strategy would work. The other vulnerable sites, Houston-Galveston and New Orleans, lack the necessary strong offshore currents. While Georgia and the Carolinas also experience many hurricane landfalls and have the Gulfstream offshore, most of these cyclones are already weakening because of vertical shear of the horizontal wind so that a second installation north of Jacksonville would be much less useful.

There has been a lot of talk about using wave and current energy to cool the ocean ahead of hurricanes. My general conclusion is that while these ideas might be made to work, the proponents underestimate the scope of the required effort, as well as the political will and recurring cost necessary to keep the project going in the long intervals between really damaging hurricanes. Skeptic that I am, I think that wiser land-use policy and more rigorous building standards are much more cost-effective and more politically feasible. A proof-of-concept that might entail deploying a half dozen devices has some appeal, but I think that there are more promising ways to spend disaster-prevention money.

Best regards,

Hugh Willoughby

Link
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
109. nymore 8:02 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Streamtracker- The thing about peer review is who is reviewing it. It should be a open process where you and all others know who they are. When the people reviewing the paper may have a bias toward you or the conclusions of the study I would have to question they objectivity. Bottom line if you are to judge something your name should be on it.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
110. nymore 8:08 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Cyclone- We all know about your machine, and nobody cares. You can quit posting it 50 times a week and basically wasting space. Everyone of your posts is either ice data, Greenland temps or the machine.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
111. cyclonebuster 8:09 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Cyclone- We all know about your machine, you can quit posting it 50 times a week and basically wasting space. Everyone of your posts is either ice data, Greenland temps or the machine.


Of course it is that is what they can prevent. Why else do you think I made the tunnels?
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
112. JBastardi 8:11 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting streamtracker:


Or they don't know manipulation when they don't see it.

Rassmussen is well known to have results that trend toward conservative viewpoints and have been criticized for using leading questions.

So, what have other recent surveys shown, Gallup and here.

The second one deals with a trust questions also.
The only way you can get conservative (or liberal) responses to poll questions is to phrase the questions in such a way that they elicit the response the questioner desires. The questions asked are available on the website and they are not biased in any way. Gallup is known to be very liberal, and they almost never post the questions asked -- only the answers.
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113. JBastardi 8:18 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
New paper finds storms responsible for fluctuations in Arctic ice pack:

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-pap er-finds-arctic-sea-ice-strongly.html


Also looks like Arctic ice is making a comeback:

Link
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114. JBastardi 8:20 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
It appears that over half of the world is in a cooling phase, but, I know, that's just regional:

Link
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117. JBastardi 8:28 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting cyclonebuster:


No it does not look like it is making a comeback. Why are you so uninformed? You need to stop spreading your BS!



BS? What does this chart demonstrate? Or can you decipher it?

Link
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
118. JBastardi 8:29 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting cyclonebuster:


And yet you keep spreading your BS! My red dots are bigger and more numerous than your tiny infinitesimal blue dots. So kindly stop spreading your BS here!





Please don't tell me what to do. Speaking of BS, also don't post any adjusted data from NOAA. Do you truly believe that garbage?
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
119. Neapolitan 8:29 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:
New paper finds storms responsible for fluctuations in Arctic ice pack:

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-pap er-finds-arctic-sea-ice-strongly.html


Also looks like Arctic ice is making a comeback:

Link

It's definitely making a comeback--in late September, as it does every autumn.

For the record, preliminary AMSR-E numbers (they're never final for a day or two, and the number will likely decrease) indicate that 36,429 square miles of Arctic Sea ice were lost yesterday. Some comeback, huh? ;-)
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11153
120. JBastardi 8:31 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

It's definitely making a comeback--in late September, as it does every autumn.

For the record, preliminary AMSR-E numbers (they're never final for a day or two, and the number will likely decrease) indicate that 36,429 square miles of Arctic Sea ice were lost yesterday. Some comeback, huh? ;-)


Unless I'm missing something, we're at the beginning of August.
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
122. JBastardi 8:43 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting cyclonebuster:


It deciphers that you make foolish statements!


The chart speaks for itself. Must be a foolish chart.
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
123. nymore 8:54 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Cyclone- Compare your dot graph against three others one from NOAA Link one from the Australian government Link one from the government of Queensland Link You can easily see the very liberal use of red dots where none should exist. In conclusion your dot graph is garbage as three sources say so including your beloved NOAA. PS and this is only the Pacific Ocean if I check further I am sure I will find more
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124. cyclonebuster 9:00 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Cyclone- Compare your dot graph against three others one from noaa Link one from the Australian government Link one from the government of Queensland Link You can easily see the very liberal use of red dots where none should exist. In conclusion your dot graph is garbage as three sources say so including your beloved NOAA


Your Queensland link doesn't work. You Australian link is not a dot graph. Please reanalyze!
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
125. theshepherd 9:09 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


Unless I'm missing something, we're at the beginning of August.


ROFLMAO :)))

What a hoot!!!

That's what happens when you become so factoid dependent that you copy and paste something from a past year.

But, I'll verify your response before I go any further,


Hmmm???

March, April, May, June, July, August...August 5th???

Of snap...yer right.

And toward the end of next month..."he'll be right".

Somehow I'm starting to get a mental image of a prepubescent teen on his mom's computer playing "stump the teacher" while she's at work.



Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8202
126. nymore 9:25 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Cyclone try it now. Also look at the legend at see the temp anomaly. The NOAA link put your cursor on the temp anomaly notice the weekly anomaly running graph. Notice where red dots are on your graph where none should be
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127. nymore 9:29 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Neapolitan- I hate to do this but since your math skills blow yesterday ice loss was 94,521 kilometers or 58,738 square miles. That should help out your argument see I am not bias.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
128. Neapolitan 9:29 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


Unless I'm missing something, we're at the beginning of August.
Oh, very good! Yes, we are indeed at the beginning of August. (I'm glad to see you have well-developed calendar-reading skills.) As you stated, ice is indeed making a comeback--in September, as it always does. Now, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you must have been talking in the future tense when you made that statement, because only the thickest or most willfully ignorant denialist would claim that ice is making a comeback now. Wait--was I wrong in giving you that benefit? Are you indeed of the mindset that ice is already staging a comeback? Because, you know, nearly 220,000 square miles kilometers of it was lost in the past week alone. Only in Happy Fantasy Denialand is a quarter of a million square mile kilometer loss called "a comeback".

Whoopsie!!!
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11153
129. cyclonebuster 9:33 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Cyclone try it now. Also look at the legend at see the temp anomaly. The NOAA link put your cursor on the temp anomaly notice the weekly anomaly running graph. Notice where red dots are on your graph where none should be


That Queensland link is still not working. Sorry.
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
131. nymore 9:53 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Neapolitan- Damn a mea culpa to you to I'm an idiot today. That's ok about the denialist part I don't hold alarmist to a very high standard of being honest
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
132. nymore 9:54 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Cyclone it works fine
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134. JBastardi 10:51 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:
Oh, very good! Yes, we are indeed at the beginning of August. (I'm glad to see you have well-developed calendar-reading skills.) As you stated, ice is indeed making a comeback--in September, as it always does. Now, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you must have been talking in the future tense when you made that statement, because only the thickest or most willfully ignorant denialist would claim that ice is making a comeback now. Wait--was I wrong in giving you that benefit? Are you indeed of the mindset that ice is already staging a comeback? Because, you know, nearly 220,000 square miles of it was lost in the past week alone. Only in Happy Fantasy Denialand is a quarter of a million square mile loss called "a comeback".

Whoopsie!!!


OOOOOooooh, we've been keeping track of ice for 30 yrs. I'm sure the ice will return. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Edit: Yes, I am of the mindset that Arctic ice is coming back ahead of the the 2007 levels, as if 30 years of data really make any difference in 5 billion years.
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
135. nymore 11:07 PM GMT on August 05, 2011    
Neapolitan- How many square miles were lost 220,000? I call bravo sierra or BS in the last 7 days 195,781 square kilometers were lost or 75,591.466 square miles. Now what was that about my education because you not being honest part seems to hold up nicely. PS we have lost 220,000 sq. mi. since I say approximately 12:00 GMT on the 22nd of July give or take an hour
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
136. JBastardi 2:35 AM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Neapolitan- How many square miles were lost 220,000? I call bravo sierra or BS in the last 7 days 195,781 square kilometers were lost or 75,591.466 square miles. Now what was that about my education because you not being honest part seems to hold up nicely. PS we have lost 220,000 sq. mi. since I say approximately 12:00 GMT on the 22nd of July give or take an hour


Every "statistic" he spouts is twisted one way or another and any information that doesn't comport with his preconceived notions isn't science or has been "thoroughly debunked" by his imaginary board of climate scientists.
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
137. JBastardi 2:39 AM GMT on August 06, 2011    
The UK Met office has finally admitted that SSTs haven't been increasing while objective scientists have known this for some time. Of course they have a reason for the lack of increase. I know the owners of this website are fond of posting those charts with all of the red even when SSTs aren't increasing. More hyperbole when the truth is that the ocean temps are leveling off. That's the normal lag time when atmospheric temps are decreasing.

Link
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138. Ossqss 3:12 AM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:
August 5, 2011 - Neapolitan:

overall comments:3

coments that mention denial:2

Today's Neapolitan denial percentage: 66.6666%


Quite the ob, and quite undeniable :)
Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
139. nymore 5:51 AM GMT on August 06, 2011    
A new study says maybe the arctic ice is not as bad as we thought Link
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140. Neapolitan 1:49 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


Every "statistic" he spouts is twisted one way or another and any information that doesn't comport with his preconceived notions isn't science or has been "thoroughly debunked" by his imaginary board of climate scientists.

As with that anti-science nonsense from one denialist site or another that you so frequently cut-and-paste from or link to, do you have anything at all to back up that accusation?

I'm sorry you have to once again delve into baseless ad hominems. But I can certainly imagine your ongoing frustration.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11153
142. Neapolitan 2:01 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
A new study says maybe the arctic ice is not as bad as we thought Link

The article on which that story is based merely repeated something we've been saying for a long time: while Arctic Ice will disappear entirely in summer not too many years from now (I say five to seven), there's no chance at all of it disappearing entirely in winter, not even if the climate warmed at the top of all projections. Unless the earth somehow tilts on its axis with the North Pole aimed at the sun, such a scenario simply can't happen.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11153
143. nymore 2:06 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
It says there was less than 50% in the summer of what the summer of 2007 had and how much fat cash would you like to bet on your prediction of 5 to 7 years believe me I can cover and have never welched on a bet? The article blames the wind and current changes just as much as temperature. Also where is my mea culpa for the 220,000 sq.mi. thing. PS I have to admire the way you try to spin the article though to fit your agenda
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
144. nymore 2:29 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Lets see in the last year what we have found out. The atmosphere warming trend has stopped or slowed down dramatically to a crawl ( depending on met agency you look at ) for the last decade caused naturally. The ocean temperature has stopped warming for the last 7 or 8 years on a natural cooling cycle than it must warm on a natural cycle. The arctic sea ice shows wide variability due to temperature, wind and currents on a natural cycle and this has happened before to a greater extent. Now these folks are trying to CYA. They say their models and measurements showed this but somehow they forgot to tell anyone for several years until it was caught by independent studies. Boy the wheels are really coming off the AGWT train. I wonder what the next shoe to drop will be. Peace out BBL
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146. Patrap 3:28 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
LoL...what a relief.


Comic dat is,,though.
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 371 Comments: 111403
148. PurpleDrank 3:52 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Carbon dioxide is released when limestone (calcium carbonate) is heated to produce lime (calcium oxide).

Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
149. nymore 4:48 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Neapolitan- Where did your post go claiming 220,000 sq. mi. of arctic sea ice lost last week. Did you delete it? Why would you delete your own made up facts? Do I get a mea culpa from you now come on we all know I caught you red handed. Come on I did not delete my post when you caught me making a mistake in fact I issue you a Mea culpa.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
150. nymore 4:53 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Patrap- Nice comment and picture ( the globe is photoshopped backwards ) Now try backing it up with facts instead of dropping by giving your opinion and leaving. Maybe you could post your co2 graph again. LOL
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
151. nymore 5:03 PM GMT on August 06, 2011    
Cyclone- Do you see the problem yet with the warm bias dot graph you like to post? Later all
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048

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About RickyRood
I'm a professor at U Michigan and lead a course on climate change problem solving. These articles include ideas from the course. And no tuition!

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