Dr. Ricky Rood's Climate Change Blog

Simply Uncertain
Posted by: Dr. Ricky Rood, 7:10 AM GMT on February 21, 2012 +11
Simply Uncertain

This past week I had a short letter published in Scientific American. The letter concerned a statement made in an article that climate models do not include clouds. This is an incorrect statement that has been around for many years, and it shows up, in my experience, in more science-focused publications. I remember an exchange of letters in Physics Today in 2005. As best as I can tell, the statement is traced to a historical document that stated the first climate models written in the late 1960s contained specified clouds – meaning that they did not change as the climate changed. By the end of the 1970s, cloud parameterizations were becoming standard in climate models, and the interplay between clouds and solar radiation emerged in the 1980s as one of the most important metrics of model performance.

My letter goes on to state that the uncertainty in climate projections associated with the physical climate model is smaller than the uncertainty associated with the models of emission scenarios that are used to project carbon dioxide emissions. This statement is worthy of more discussion. Let me start with a couple of reminders. In all of these endeavors looking to the future we use models. Models are constructed based on observed behavior and are tools for projecting future outcomes. By “physical climate model” I mean a mathematical representation based on the laws of physics. Most simply, in this case, how is solar energy absorbed by the Earth, redistributed, and then emitted back to space? More generally, laws that govern physics, chemistry and biology are incorporated into climate models.

Another important ingredient in making climate projections is what is our future emission of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases? “Emission scenario” models are based on assumptions of population growth, economic development and sources of energy to drive the economy. Historically, one type of scenario is called “business as usual” and simply extrapolates curves of past energy use into the future. If we take emission curves that, for example, stop in 2005 and project them forward, we see that in the last couple of years we are ahead of those emissions. Generally, business as usual is assumed to be the worst case. We have several emission models based on various assumptions about development and deployment of technology. Current efforts in climate science are striving to make emission models and physical climate models talk to each other – to interact.

Physical climate models are based on the laws of physics and that does provide strategies for determining cause and effect. If cause and effect can be determined to a high degree of certainty, then we can be quite certain about predictions. The economic models, that I know, are based on observations of economic systems that are then represented through a set of mathematical relationships. These relationships are often represented by statistical methods, strive to represent human behavior, and include measures of value that rely on how much humans value something. In atmospheric science, for example, there are a set of “primitive equations” which all agree describe the motion of the atmosphere. Such a set of physically derived equations do not sit at the basis of economic projections. I hope I have stayed out of trouble here. As in a number of previous entries, I draw your attention to Daniel Farber’s Climate Models: A User’s Guide. Farber is neither climate scientist or economist, a fact that I always view as providing a measure of objective evaluation. He evaluates model robustness.

I want to discuss this uncertainty issue a little bit more, and will rely on an old standard figure from the 2001 IPCC Report. This figure has a lot of information about uncertainty.



Figure 1: From 2001 IPCC Third Assessment Report Variations of the Earth’s surface temperature: year 1000 to year 2100

The figure shows the temperature since the year 1000 forward to year 2100. The temperatures from the past are from observations of different types. The temperatures in the future are from model projections. There are a set of different physical climate models all using a standard set of emission scenarios. I have marked three types of uncertainty on the figure.

In light blue I point to a measure of observational uncertainty. This is the gray spread around the bold red temperature line. This gets smaller as more and more observations become available over time. Going into the future there are the individual colored lines of different models and on the right of the figure are the ranges associated with those models for the set of emission scenarios. The envelope of all of the models with all of the emission scenarios is pointed out by the green arrows. A simple estimate of uncertainty is the spread of the models. This uncertainty grows with time, and the spread when all of the scenarios are included is larger than the spread of any individual model. If one were to look at the individual models, you would see much the same thing. In the absence of different scenarios the models would have a significantly more narrow spread.

There are a number of important points in this simple approach to thinking about uncertainty. Looking at the spread of all models with all scenarios, the spread at, say, 30 years in the future is quite well defined by the lines of the individual models. It takes 30 or 40 years before the difference in the scenarios makes a difference. As a rule of thumb a simple description of uncertainty is that in the next couple of decades “internal variability,” that is, the spread is mostly due to things like El Nino and La Nina is most important. Then there is a length of time where the spread is due mostly to model differences. And as time approaches a century or longer, the spread due to emission scenarios begins to dominate. I note that model differences are always important, and that this difference is strongly related to details of the treatment of clouds. This uncertainty is expressed in how fast does it warm?

The physical climate model is like a telescope into the future; it provides actionable knowledge the Earth will warm, ice will melt, sea level will rise, and the weather will change. As the models improve, that future comes into more and more focus. There are physical relationships that allow a high degree of confidence to be attributed to some aspects of climate projections. For example, the surface of the globe will warm, in any carbon dioxide emission scenario. On this global scale, both model uncertainty and emission scenario uncertainty address the issue of how fast the surface will warm. Neither suggest any plausible scenario where the Earth does not warm. And simply to make the point, this plot does not suggest that the warming stops at 2100; that's just as far as the information is plotted. At local spatial scales, scales for which the models were not designed, the uncertainty analysis follows a much different logic than presented here.

r

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401. Patrap 7:18 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 371 Comments: 111403
402. Some1Has2BtheRookie 7:26 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting Patrap:
co2now.org


393.65ppm


Atmospheric CO2 for February 2012




For the life of me, Pat, I know that the average third grade student could look at that chart and instantly realize that something is up! (Pardon the pun.) Why is it so difficult for so many "educated" people to not be able to see this? Has their eyesight really become so poor?
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403. martinitony 7:35 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


Yup! Things, they are a changin'.

Now, the next question is, can you put two plus two together? No, no, no. Not twoplustwo. Add 2 and 2 together. Hint: the answer is not 22.

We have just come off of two years of a strong La Nina and are only recently approaching a neutral. Solar activity is starting to come out of its long lull. I wish that I could be as exciting as you about any apparent cooling, but I think this "cooling" is about to change real soon.


No, not necessarily. It will become even colder over the next several years. The ice in the Arctic won't peak for about 2-3 weeks and will probably come close to touching the zero anomaly line. But you are probably right about things changing. The cooling trend will become more profound.
In a couple years I would like to post an I told you so, but it is likely this blog will disappear with the global warming.
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404. Patrap 7:42 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


For the life of me, Pat, I know that the average third grade student could look at that chart and instantly realize that something is up! (Pardon the pun.) Why is it so difficult for so many "educated" people to not be able to see this? Has their eyesight really become so poor?




The Psychology of Climate Change Denial

Even as the science of global warming gets stronger, fewer Americans believe it’s real. In some ways, it’s nearly as jarring a disconnect as enduring disbelief in evolution or carbon dating. And according to Kari Marie Norgaard, a Whitman College sociologist who’s studied public attitudes towards climate science, we’re in denial.

“Our response to disturbing information is very complex. We negotiate it. We don’t just take it in and respond in a rational way,” said Norgaard.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change declared in 2007 that greenhouse gases had reached levels not seen in 650,000 years, and were rising rapidly as a result of people burning fossil fuel. Because these gases trap the sun’s heat, they would — depending on human energy habits — heat Earth by an average of between 1.5 and 7.2 degrees Fahrenheit by century’s end. Even a midrange rise would likely disrupt the planet’s climate, producing droughts and floods, acidified oceans, altered ecosystems and coastal cities drowned by rising seas.

“If there’s no action before 2012, that’s too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future,” said Rajendra Pachauri, the IPCC chairman, when the report was released. “This is the defining moment.”

Studies published since then have only strengthened the IPCC’s predictions, or suggested they underestimate future warming. But as world leaders gather in Copenhagen to discuss how to avoid catastrophic climate change, barely half the U.S. public thinks carbon pollution could warm Earth. That’s 20 percent less than in 2007, and lower than at any point in the last 12 years. In a Pew Research Center poll, Americans ranked climate dead last out of 20 top issues, behind immigration and trade policy.

Wired.com talked to Norgaard about the divide between science and public opinion.

Wired.com: Why don’t people seem to care?

Kari Norgaard: On the one hand, there have been extremely well-organized, well-funded climate-skeptic campaigns. Those are backed by Exxon Mobil in particular, and the same PR firms who helped the tobacco industry (.pdf) deny the link between cancer and smoking are involved with magnifying doubt around climate change.

That’s extremely important, but my work has been in a different area. It’s been about people who believe in science, who aren’t out to question whether science has a place in society.

Wired.com: People who are coming at the issue in good faith, you mean. What’s their response?

Norgaard: Climate change is disturbing. It’s something we don’t want to think about. So what we do in our everyday lives is create a world where it’s not there, and keep it distant.

For relatively privileged people like myself, we don’t have to see the impact in everyday life. I can read about different flood regimes in Bangladesh, or people in the Maldives losing their islands to sea level rise, or highways in Alaska that are altered as permafrost changes. But that’s not my life. We have a vast capacity for this.


Wired.com: How is this bubble maintained?

Norgaard: In order to have a positive sense of self-identity and get through the day, we’re constantly being selective of what we think about and pay attention to. To create a sense of a good, safe world for ourselves, we screen out all kinds of information, from where food comes from to how our clothes our made. When we talk with our friends, we talk about something pleasant.

Wired.com: How does this translate into skepticism about climate change?

Norgaard: It’s a paradox. Awareness has increased. There’s been a lot more information available. This is much more in our face. And this is where the psychological defense mechanisms are relevant, especially when coupled with the fact that other people, as we’ve lately seen with the e-mail attacks, are systematically trying to create the sense that there’s doubt.

If I don’t want to believe that climate change is true, that my lifestyle and high carbon emissions are causing devastation, then it’s convenient to say that it doesn’t.

Wired.com: Is that what this comes down to — not wanting to confront our own roles?

Norgaard: I think so. And the reason is that we don’t have a clear sense of what we can do. Any community organizer knows that if you want people to respond to something, you need to tell them what to do, and make it seem do-able. Stanford University psychologist Jon Krosnick has studied this, and showed that people stop paying attention to climate change when they realize there’s no easy solution. People judge as serious only those problems for which actions can be taken.

Another factor is that we no longer have a sense of permanence. Another psychologist, Robert Lifton, wrote about what the existence of atomic bombs did to our psyche. There was a sense that the world could end at any moment.

Global warming is the same in that it threatens the survival of our species. Psychologists tell us that it’s very important to have a sense of the continuity of life. That’s why we invest in big monuments and want our work to stand after we die and have our family name go on.

That sense of continuity is being ruptured. But climate change has an added aspect that is very important. The scientists who built nuclear bombs felt guilt about what they did. Now the guilt is real for the broader public.

Wired.com: So we don’t want to believe climate change is happening, feel guilty that it is, and don’t know what to do about it? So we pretend it’s not a problem?

Norgaard: Yes, but I don’t want to make it seem crass. Sometimes people who are very empathetic are less likely to help in certain situations, because they’re so disturbed by it. The human capacity of empathy is really profound, and that’s part of our weakness. If we were more callous, then we’d approach it in a more straightforward way. It may be a weakness of our capacity as sentient beings to cope with this problem.
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405. Some1Has2BtheRookie 7:44 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting martinitony:


No, not necessarily. It will become even colder over the next several years. The ice in the Arctic won't peak for about 2-3 weeks and will probably come close to touching the zero anomaly line. But you are probably right about things changing. The cooling trend will become more profound.
In a couple years I would like to post an I told you so, but it is likely this blog will disappear with the global warming.


I hope that you are right about the first part and wrong on the second part. I would gladly stand by your side and help celebrate!
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406. Xandra 8:01 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting martinitony:
Thank goodness we have Obama to direct those dollars at
Wind Turbines

Matt Ridley - The Man Who Wants to Northern Rock the Planet

Matt Ridley’s irrational theories remain unchanged by his own disastrous experiment.

By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 1st June 2010

Brass neck doesn’t begin to describe it. Matt Ridley used to make his living partly by writing state-bashing columns in the Daily Telegraph. The government, he complained, is “a self-seeking flea on the backs of the more productive people of this world … governments do not run countries, they parasitise them.”(1) Taxes, bail-outs, regulations, subsidies, intervention of any kind, he argued, are an unwarranted restraint on market freedom.

Then he became chairman of Northern Rock, where he was able to put his free market principles into practice. Under his chairmanship, the bank pursued what the Treasury select committee later described as a “high-risk, reckless business strategy”(2). It was able to do so because the government agency which oversees the banks “systematically failed in its regulatory duty”(3).

On 16th August 2007, Dr Ridley rang an agent of the detested state to explore the possibility of a bail-out. The self-seeking fleas agreed to his request, and in September the government opened a support facility for the floundering bank. The taxpayer eventually bailed out Northern Rock to the tune of £27bn.

When news of the crisis leaked, it caused the first run on a bank in this country since 1878. The parasitic state had to intervene a second time: the run was halted only when the government guaranteed the depositors’ money. Eventually the government was obliged to nationalise the bank. Investors, knowing that their money would now be safe as it was protected by the state, began to return.

While the crisis was made possible by a “substantial failure of regulation”, MPs identified the directors of Northern Rock as “the principal authors of the difficulties that the company has faced”. They singled Ridley out for having failed “to provide against the risks that [Northern Rock] was taking and to act as an effective restraining force on the strategy of the executive members.”(4)

This, you might think, must have been a salutary experience. You would be wrong. Last week Dr Ridley published a new book called The Rational Optimist(5). He uses it as a platform to attack governments which, among other crimes, “bail out big corporations”(6). He lambasts intervention and state regulation, insisting that markets deliver the greatest possible benefits to society when left to their own devices. Has there ever been a clearer case of the triumph of faith over experience?

Free market fundamentalists, apparently unaware of Ridley’s own experiment in market liberation, are currently filling cyberspace and the mainstream media with gasps of enthusiasm about his thesis. Ridley provides what he claims is a scientific justification for unregulated business. He maintains that rising consumption will keep enriching us for “centuries and millennia” to come(7), but only if governments don’t impede innovation. He dismisses or denies the environmental consequences, laments our risk-aversion, and claims that the market system makes self-interest “thoroughly virtuous”(8). All will be well in the best of all possible worlds, as long as the “parasitic bureaucracy” keeps its nose out of our lives(9).

His book is elegantly written and cast in the language of evolution, but it’s the same old cornutopian nonsense we’ve heard one hundred times before (cornutopians are people who envisage a utopia of limitless abundance(10)). In this case, however, it has already been spectacularly disproved by the author’s experience.

The Rational Optimist is riddled with excruciating errors and distortions. Ridley claims, for example, that “every country that tried protectionism” after the Second World War suffered as a result. He cites South Korea and Taiwan as “countries that went the other way”, and experienced miraculous growth(11). In reality, the governments of both nations subsidised key industries, actively promoted exports and used tariffs and laws to shut out competing imports. In both countries the state owned all the major commercial banks, allowing it to make decisions about investment(12,13,14).

He maintains that “Enron funded climate alarmism”(15). The reference he gives demonstrates nothing of the sort, nor can I find evidence for this claim elsewhere(16). He says that “no significant error has come to light” in Bjorn Lomborg’s book The Sceptical Environmentalist(17). In fact it contains so many significant errors that an entire book – The Lomborg Deception by Howard Friel – was required to document them(18).

Ridley asserts that average temperature changes over “the last three decades” have been “relatively slow”(19). In reality the rise over this period has been the most rapid since instrumental records began(20). He maintains that “eleven of thirteen populations” of polar bears are “growing or steady”(21). There are in fact 19 populations of polar bears. Of those whose fluctuations have been measured, one is increasing, three are stable and eight are declining(22).

He uses blatant cherry-picking to create the impression that ecosystems are recovering: water snake numbers in Lake Erie, fish populations in the Thames, bird’s eggs in Sweden(23). But as the Millennium Ecosystem Assessment shows, of 65 global indicators of human impacts on biodiversity, only one – the extent of temperate forests – is improving. Eighteen are stable, in all the other cases the impacts are increasing(24).

Northern Rock grew rapidly by externalising its costs, pursuing money-making schemes that would eventually be paid for by other people. Ridley encourages us to treat the planet the same way. He either ignores or glosses over the costs of ever-expanding trade and perpetual growth. His timing, as BP fails to contain the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, is unfortunate. Like the collapse of Northern Rock, the Deepwater Horizon disaster was made possible by weak regulation. Ridley would weaken it even further, leaving public protection to the invisible hand of the market.

He might not have been chastened by experience, but it would be wrong to claim that he has learnt nothing. On the contrary, he has developed a fine line in blame-shifting and post-rational justification. He mentions Northern Rock only once in his book, where he blames the crisis on “government housing and monetary policy.”(25) It was the state wot made him do it. He asserts that while he wants to reduce the regulation of markets in goods and services, he has “always supported” the careful regulation of financial markets(26). He provides no evidence for this and I cannot find it in anything he wrote before the crisis.

Other than that, he claims, he can say nothing, due to the terms of his former employment at the bank. I suspect this constraint is overstated: it’s unlikely that it forbids him from accepting his share of the blame.

It is only from the safety of the regulated economy, in which governments pick up the pieces when business screws up, that people like Dr Ridley can pursue their magical thinking. Had the state he despises not bailed out his bank and rescued its depositors’ money, his head would probably be on a pike by now. Instead we see it on our television screens, instructing us to apply his irrational optimism more widely. And no one has yet been rude enough to use the word discredited.

http://www.monbiot.com/2010/06/01/the-man-who-wan ts-to-northern-rock-the-planet/
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407. cyclonebuster 9:01 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    

No need making the loop current any hotter than it is already. These remove the heat from the loop current:




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408. NeapolitanFan 9:13 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
It's the sun, stupid. Another study correlating solar activity with temperature and predicting a decrease of 1 degree C in global temps.

Link
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409. JupiterKen 9:17 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
I'm sure glad y'all straightened me out about the veracity of Michael Mann.

Link

WUWT snark forthcoming...
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410. Neapolitan 9:43 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting martinitony:


No, not necessarily. It will become even colder over the next several years. The ice in the Arctic won't peak for about 2-3 weeks and will probably come close to touching the zero anomaly line. But you are probably right about things changing. The cooling trend will become more profound.
In a couple years I would like to post an I told you so, but it is likely this blog will disappear with the global warming.
Do you have a single credible shred of data to back up any of those claims?

-In order for Arctic Sea ice to not peak for 2-3 more weeks, it would have to do so between days 80 and 87. There's only been one year in the last ten during which SIA maximum took place on or after day 80; the mean during that span has been 67. And only four times since 1979 has peak day come on or after day 80, and two of those were in the mid-80s. Too, the trend has been towards an earlier peak. On top of that, forecast anomalies for the Arctic are very high over the news few weeks. All in all, there's a very good chance this year's peak has been reached, or will be within the next day or two. (To reach the "zero" anomaly line would be require an additional 400,000 km2 of ice area to be added after day 67, and that has never happened any year since records have been kept.)

-I'm not sure what "cooling trend" you're talking about; none exists, period. The planet continues to warm at an increasing rate, and it shows no signs of slowing down.
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411. nymore 11:00 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting Neapolitan:


-I'm not sure what "cooling trend" you're talking about; none exists, period. The planet continues to warm at an increasing rate, and it shows no signs of slowing down.
Can you back up this claim? I know the last 18 months or so may be because of La Nina but that does not explain why it has not warmed for the last decade.

Now before you try and back it up with some twisted facts, I will let you know as soon as you do I will post graphs from NOAA, NASA and CRU that will directly refute your claim.

IOW It has not continued to warm and there is no increasing rate. In fact it is basically flat lined or slightly cooled for the last decade, so there can be no increasing rate in fact it would be decreasing. I can back up this statement with actual facts.
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412. cyclonebuster 11:01 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting Neapolitan:
Do you have a single credible shred of data to back up any of those claims?

-In order for Arctic Sea ice to not peak for 2-3 more weeks, it would have to do so between days 80 and 87. There's only been one year in the last ten during which SIA maximum took place on or after day 80; the mean during that span has been 67. And only four times since 1979 has peak day come on or after day 80, and two of those were in the mid-80s. Too, the trend has been towards an earlier peak. On top of that, forecast anomalies for the Arctic are very high over the news few weeks. All in all, there's a very good chance this year's peak has been reached, or will be within the next day or two. (To reach the "zero" anomaly line would be require an additional 400,000 km2 of ice area to be added after day 67, and that has never happened any year since records have been kept.)

-I'm not sure what "cooling trend" you're talking about; none exists, period. The planet continues to warm at an increasing rate, and it shows no signs of slowing down.



That is the peak they will to show what the think is a recovery. LOL!
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413. Xandra 11:43 PM GMT on March 07, 2012    
Quoting NeapolitanFan:
It's the sun, stupid. Another study correlating solar activity with temperature and predicting a decrease of 1 degree C in global temps.

Link

It's NOT the sun, stupid.

If you read the study you'll see that Solheim has got a little help from David Archibald.

David Archibald. LOL

From SkS

...As we at SkS have previously noted, Archibald has a history of focusing on data from individual surface temperature stations such as Perth, Australia or Bridgeport, Washington. In his 2009 paper, Archibald similarly focused on temperature data from a single temperature station in Hanover, New Hampshire:

"If the month of minimum for the Solar Cycle 23 to 24 transition is July 2009, this would make Solar Cycle 23 over thirteen years long. This in turn would mean that it would be 3.2 years longer than Solar Cycle 22, and imply that the annual average temperature of Hanover, New Hampshire will be 2.2° C cooler during Solar Cycle 24 than it had been on average over Solar Cycle 23."

In this quote, Archibald repeats the myth that solar cycle length determines global temperatures - a quite unphysical argument which is based on correlation rather than causation - and specifically focuses on the temperature data from a single station.

The temperature data for Hanover are available via NASA GISS. The average temperature in Hanover over solar cycle 23, which began in May 1996 and ended in December 2008, was 7.9°C. Thus if Archibald is correct, over solar cycle 24, the temperature in Hanover should cool to 5.7°C. In fact, Archibald's prediction is based on the average temperature over the entire solar cycle, so his prediction is actually that the average temperature in Hanover from approximately 2009 through 2020 will be 5.7°C.

Click for larger image:

Uh-oh


GISS temperature record for Hanover, New Hampshire (1895 through 2008, black), GISS Hanover data for solar cycle 24 (2009 through 2011, green), and an example of how Hanover temperatures would have to change for Archibald's prediction to be accurate (blue).

As with John McLean's failed temperature prediction, a simple cursory glance at the data is all that's necessary to conclude that Archibald's prediction has no basis in reality. However, we haven't yet seen the worst of Archibald's predictions...
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414. NeapolitanFan 12:33 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Xandra:

It's NOT the sun, stupid.

If you read the study you'll see that Solheim has got a little help from David Archibald.

David Archibald. LOL

From SkS

...As we at SkS have previously noted, Archibald has a history of focusing on data from individual surface temperature stations such as Perth, Australia or Bridgeport, Washington. In his 2009 paper, Archibald similarly focused on temperature data from a single temperature station in Hanover, New Hampshire:

"If the month of minimum for the Solar Cycle 23 to 24 transition is July 2009, this would make Solar Cycle 23 over thirteen years long. This in turn would mean that it would be 3.2 years longer than Solar Cycle 22, and imply that the annual average temperature of Hanover, New Hampshire will be 2.2° C cooler during Solar Cycle 24 than it had been on average over Solar Cycle 23."

In this quote, Archibald repeats the myth that solar cycle length determines global temperatures - a quite unphysical argument which is based on correlation rather than causation - and specifically focuses on the temperature data from a single station.

The temperature data for Hanover are available via NASA GISS. The average temperature in Hanover over solar cycle 23, which began in May 1996 and ended in December 2008, was 7.9°C. Thus if Archibald is correct, over solar cycle 24, the temperature in Hanover should cool to 5.7°C. In fact, Archibald's prediction is based on the average temperature over the entire solar cycle, so his prediction is actually that the average temperature in Hanover from approximately 2009 through 2020 will be 5.7°C.

Click for larger image:

Uh-oh


GISS temperature record for Hanover, New Hampshire (1895 through 2008, black), GISS Hanover data for solar cycle 24 (2009 through 2011, green), and an example of how Hanover temperatures would have to change for Archibald's prediction to be accurate (blue).

As with John McLean's failed temperature prediction, a simple cursory glance at the data is all that's necessary to conclude that Archibald's prediction has no basis in reality. However, we haven't yet seen the worst of Archibald's predictions...


You are guilty of what I get accused of every time I show data -- cherrypicking. You use one town on the entire earth as an example. Ok, get rid of the magic mushrooms.
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415. Birthmark 3:20 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Ossqss:


What gives is those types of statements are just not right. It has happened before.

"It" has? When?
Quoting Ossqss:
The terms, unprecedented, never before in history, first time ever, lose credibility by virtue of the statement itself for they are false.

False? Please provide verifiable evidence.

Quoting Ossqss:
It is unbelievable to those who can interpret, and in some instances, interpolate the statements, and rightly so. You can sound the alarm, but some of us know better than you do :)

Aren't you the person who tried to tell me that Earth gets almost all of its energy from the Sun, and that that represented a "gaping hole" in AGW theory? Of course you are!

You'll excuse me if I chuckle at your self-proclaimed authority, won't you?

Actually, it doesn't matter if you'll excuse me or not. I'm LMAO! :)
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416. Birthmark 3:23 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting overwash12:
How is that ice doing at the North Pole?

Thin, sir. Mighty thin.

And it's getting thinner every year.

Thanks for asking. Hope that helps.
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417. Birthmark 3:26 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting martinitony:

Yes, but the reality is that the anomaly is the lowest in a couple of years and the Earth's lower atmospheric temperatures are also the lowest in a couple of years. Putting two plus two together would suggest that things might be changing regarding the warming we had a while back. Can you put two and two together?

Thank you very much for the weather report!

Hint: Climate > "a couple of years"
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418. Birthmark 3:33 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting NeapolitanFan:
It's the sun, stupid. Another study correlating solar activity with temperature and predicting a decrease of 1 degree C in global temps.

Link

From the link you provided:
"This provides a tool to predict an average temperature decrease of at least 1.0 ◦C from solar cycle 23 to 24 for the stations and areas analyzed." -bold added

Prior to that statement, it specifies, "meteorological stations in Norway and in the North Atlantic region."

I humbly suggest that Norway and the North Atlantic region -both fine places- are not the Earth.

Better luck next time.
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419. Birthmark 3:42 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:
Can you back up this claim? I know the last 18 months or so may be because of La Nina but that does not explain why it has not warmed for the last decade.

How do you know it has not warmed in the last decade? And if it didn't warm, what is the significance of that?

Quoting nymore:
IOW It has not continued to warm and there is no increasing rate. In fact it is basically flat lined or slightly cooled for the last decade, so there can be no increasing rate in fact it would be decreasing. I can back up this statement with actual facts.

No, you really can't. What you can do is back it up with factoids that are irrelevant and are not statistically significant to climate.
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420. nymore 4:00 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:

How do you know it has not warmed in the last decade? And if it didn't warm, what is the significance of that?


No, you really can't. What you can do is back it up with factoids that are irrelevant and are not statistically significant to climate.
I know it did not warm because CRU, NASA and NOAA said it did not. I was responding to someone else and their claim of continued warming and it is getting more rapid. Both are false. I don't care if it is a factoid or statistically relevant or not the claim made is false.

Can you back up his claim?

I know the only one you can pick out is water temp from 700 to 2000 meters but that data only goes back to 2005 when measured directly by ARGO.

Here lets just see one graph from CRU



If you can please point out the continued warming and rapid acceleration for the last decade. It would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.
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421. Birthmark 4:12 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:
I know it did not warm because CRU, NASA and NOAA said it did not.

No, they didn't.


Quoting nymore:
I was responding to someones claim of continued warming and it is getting more rapid

Then you responded with the wrong answer. Here is the 30-year (the defined length of time necessary to determine the warming signal) warming rate for the past three decades:


It is clear that the climate is warming, and warming at an increasing rate. Your pointing out that weather still occurs is news to no one.

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422. nymore 4:20 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:

No, they didn't.



Then you responded with the wrong answer. Here is the 30-year (the defined length of time necessary to determine the warming signal) warming rate for the past three decades:


It is clear that the climate is warming, and warming at an increasing rate. Your pointing out that weather still occurs is news to no one.

I do agree it did warm very rapidly in the 90's but not so much in the 2000's. The rapid warming in the 90's skews the trend. The trend from say 1910 to 1940 looks very close to now, was that caused by man too. maybe


I will ask again can you show this continued and accelerating warming for the last decade?
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423. Birthmark 4:40 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:
Really 30 years? How is it Climate Scientists were screaming bloody murder in the 80's and 90's when they should have waited till what 2004 or 2005 for thirty years of a warming signal

They had already waited thirty years (more, actually).


NOTE: This graph is incorrect, due to the fact that the WTI index only goes back to 1979...and the fact that I just lazily posted it without checking first. Sorry for the mistake. A correct graph appears in a subsequent post. Thanks for your patience.

Quoting nymore:
I do agree it did warm very rapidly in the 90's but not so much in the 2000's. The rapid warming in the 90's skews the trend.

You choose to ignore physics and claim that the 90's "skews the trend" --presumably upward. How do you know that the 2000s are not "skewing the trend" downward?

Quoting nymore:
I will ask again can you show this continued and accelerating warming for the last decade?

I just did that. When you look at the climate rather than the weather, the warming acceleration is clear. If you want to talk about weather, there are plenty of boards set up for just that purpose. (I heartily recommend Dr. Masters' blog.) If you want to talk about climate, then let's talk about climate.
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424. nymore 4:52 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:

They had already waited thirty years (more, actually).




You choose to ignore physics and claim that the 90's "skews the trend" --presumably upward. How do you know that the 2000s are not "skewing the trend" downward?


I just did that. When you look at the climate rather than the weather, the warming acceleration is clear. If you want to talk about weather, there are plenty of boards set up for just that purpose. (I heartily recommend Dr. Masters' blog.) If you want to talk about climate, then let's talk about climate.
really why did the graph you just posted only go from 1979 to 1980? Oh that is right Wood For Trees temp index only goes back to 1979. No matter what numbers you put in, look at the bottom of the graph.

Here is a nice example



Notice how 1990 matches right up to 1911.

Notice all your trend lines start on the same date except for the 1982 one.

Come on dude I am pretty street smart. nice scam for the morons though

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425. Birthmark 5:19 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:
really why did the graph you just posted only go from 1979 to 1980? Oh that is right Wood For Trees temp index only goes back to 1979.

I apologize. I forgot that the WTI only begins in 1979 and didn't look closely at the graph. People do make mistakes. Even me. I have posted a note indicated that the graph is incorrect. Thanks for pointing that out.

Here is the HADCRUT3 for 1951 - 1980 instead.


Clearly it warmed noticeably in the three decades before climatologists began to speak out.

Here are the HADCRUT3 30-year trends for 1962 - 2011.


The graph again shows accelerating warming. I chose HADCRUT because it is the least warm of the surface measurements due to less coverage of polar regions.
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426. nymore 5:28 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:

I apologize. I forgot that the WTI only begins in 1979 and didn't look closely at the graph. People do make mistakes. Even me.

Here is the HADCRUT3 for 1951 - 1980 instead.


Clearly it warmed noticeably in the three decades before climatologists began to speak out.

Here are the HADCRUT3 30-year trends for 1962 - 2011.


The graph again shows accelerating warming. I chose HADCRUT because it is the coolest of the surface measurements due to less coverage of polar regions.
No problem on the mistake. Notice the 1972 and 1982 trend lines mirror each other. That would tell me the rapid acceleration is not happening. Is it warmer now than 1972 or 1982 yes. Your graph would also tell me the temp has basically been flat for a decade. As I stated earlier.
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427. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:30 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:
really why did the graph you just posted only go from 1979 to 1980? Oh that is right Wood For Trees temp index only goes back to 1979. No matter what numbers you put in, look at the bottom of the graph.

Here is a nice example



Notice how 1990 matches right up to 1911



Good evening, sir.

I have a question for you. The graphic is not something that I can easily understand. What is that this graphic actually depicts?

I went to the website trying to get a better handle on how to "read" this graphic. Such as, what is the wti? I could not find my answer there, so perhaps you may help me?

This is what I did find there:

"How you can help

I welcome constructive suggestions of new algorithms or datasets I could add, and in particular help from experts if I've got any of the maths badly wrong (which is quite possible).

Mail me at 'paul' at this domain. Flames will be silently extinguished."


This is from this website - Seeing the Wood for Trees

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428. nymore 5:35 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


Good evening, sir.

I have a question for you. The graphic is not something that I can easily understand. What is that this graphic actually depicts?

I went to the website trying to get a better handle on how to "read" this graphic. Such as, what is the wti? I could not find my answer there, so perhaps you may help me?

This is what I did find there:

"How you can help

I welcome constructive suggestions of new algorithms or datasets I could add, and in particular help from experts if I've got any of the maths badly wrong (which is quite possible).

Mail me at 'paul' at this domain. Flames will be silently extinguished."


This is from this website - Seeing the Wood for Trees




The web site is woodfortrees.org look in the lower right of the page
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429. Birthmark 5:36 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
I never claimed "rapid acceleration", only plain-old, ordinary, every day accelerating. The graph indicates that.

However, as I said, HADCRUT3 has rather poor polar coverage. The polar regions are where some of the most dramatic warming has taken place. If we look at GISSTEMP, we see a bit more acceleration:



Both satellite series, RSS and UAH agree that the trend is accelerating. They are both in closer agreement to GISSTEMP than HADCRUT3.

No doubt about it. The climate is warming, and the rate of warming is increasing.

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430. nymore 5:40 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:
I never claimed "rapid acceleration", only plain-old, ordinary, every day accelerating. The graph indicates that.

However, as I said, HADCRUT3 has rather poor polar coverage. The polar regions are where some of the most dramatic warming has taken place. If we look at GISSTEMP, we see a bit more acceleration:



Both satellite series, RSS and UAH agree that the trend is accelerating. They are both in closer agreement to GISSTEMP than HADCRUT3.

No doubt about it. The climate is warming, and the rate of warming is increasing.

I know you never claimed it but you jumped in to back up someone who did. Actually your graph shows the rate decreasing. It just flat lined a decade ago so we will have to see what the future holds. How could you tell from RSS or UAH since that info starts in 1979
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431. Birthmark 5:40 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


Good evening, sir.

I have a question for you. The graphic is not something that I can easily understand. What is that this graphic actually depicts?

"WTI: The WoodForTrees Temperature Index

When playing around with temperature graphs, I always found myself having to choose which of the four global temperature sources - HADCRUT3, GISTEMP, UAH, RSS - to use. Since they all have their differences, particularly around short-term responses to extreme events like the 1998 El Nino, I thought it would be nice to have an average of all four...

Hence I've created the WoodForTrees Temperature Index (WTI). This is created from the mean of HADCRUT3VGL, GISTEMP, RSS and UAH, offset by their baseline differences. It covers only the time period where all four series are valid, so begins in 1979 and will only contain the latest month's values when all four sources are in. It is updated from the master sources at 3am GMT/BST each night."

http://www.woodfortrees.org/notes#wti

Is that what you're after?
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432. Birthmark 5:42 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:
I know you never claimed it but you jumped in to back up someone who did.

If they merely claimed "accelerating" then they are correct.

If they claimed "rapidly accelerating" then they might still be correct, depending upon how "rapidly" is defined.
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433. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:47 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:



The web site is woodfortrees.org look in the lower right of the page


Yes, that is the website I went to. What I read is that basically Paul is setting up an experiment to test his algorithms and that he is not certain that he has the math correct. How are we suppose to use this when he is looking for new algorithms and data sets and is not certain that he has the math right?
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434. Birthmark 5:48 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
An interesting paper was released fairly recently that removed natural cycles (as much as possible) and left the actual global warming signal.

Here is a graph of that signal:


This is a link to the abstract.

The full paper may be downloaded there.
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435. nymore 5:49 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:

If they merely claimed "accelerating" then they are correct.

If they claimed "rapidly accelerating" then they might still be correct, depending upon how "rapidly" is defined.
always a spin. Your graph actually shows it decreasing. I was going to ask you how derived a trend to compare from decade to decade from RSS or UAH when the info does not start till 1979.
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436. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:49 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:

"WTI: The WoodForTrees Temperature Index

When playing around with temperature graphs, I always found myself having to choose which of the four global temperature sources - HADCRUT3, GISTEMP, UAH, RSS - to use. Since they all have their differences, particularly around short-term responses to extreme events like the 1998 El Nino, I thought it would be nice to have an average of all four...

Hence I've created the WoodForTrees Temperature Index (WTI). This is created from the mean of HADCRUT3VGL, GISTEMP, RSS and UAH, offset by their baseline differences. It covers only the time period where all four series are valid, so begins in 1979 and will only contain the latest month's values when all four sources are in. It is updated from the master sources at 3am GMT/BST each night."

http://www.woodfortrees.org/notes#wti

Is that what you're after?


"WTI" is what I was looking for. I had no clue as to what it was an acronym for.
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437. nymore 5:52 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


Yes, that is the website I went to. What I read is that basically Paul is setting up an experiment to test his algorithms and that he is not certain that he has the math correct. How are we suppose to use this when he is looking for new algorithms and data sets and is not certain that he has the math right?
I can not answer that but I always try to use the same source as the person posting it. It could very well be garbage
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438. Birthmark 5:55 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


Yes, that is the website I went to. What I read is that basically Paul is setting up an experiment to test his algorithms and that he is not certain that he has the math correct. How are we suppose to use this when he is looking for new algorithms and data sets and is not certain that he has the math right?

The same way we use models. They, too, are always looking to improve. In the meantime, you use what you have, if it is useful. As you learn more, you change. Would I cite WTI in a scientific paper? No. Is it a poor indicator of global temperature? No. It's certainly no worse than, say UAH, which has had to do some pretty hefty adjusting over the years.

Life is imperfect. :)
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439. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:55 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:
I can not answer that but I always try to use the same source as the person posting it. It could very well be garbage


AH! I understand. Thanks.

Reading what I read, at the website, I would not trust either side of the debate that was using that as a source.
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440. nymore 6:00 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:
An interesting paper was released fairly recently that removed natural cycles (as much as possible) and left the actual global warming signal.

Here is a graph of that signal:


This is a link to the abstract.

The full paper may be downloaded there.
You can not use adjusted data when you do not even know how to adjust the data or as they say in the paper all KNOWN data. The temp where I am at right now is 14F if I adjust for wind chill it is -2F. The temp is the temp
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441. Some1Has2BtheRookie 6:02 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:

The same way we use models. They, too, are always looking to improve. In the meantime, you use what you have, if it is useful. As you learn more, you change. Would I cite WTI in a scientific paper? No. Is it a poor indicator of global temperature? No. It's certainly no worse than, say UAH, which has had to do some pretty hefty adjusting over the years.

Life is imperfect. :)


Very true. I also understand that there are no perfect models. I would be skeptical of any model designer that claimed their model is perfect. ... Still, when he is even unsure of the math he is using, I would have to question its usefulness for anything other than an experiment to test the math being used. But, that is just me.
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442. Birthmark 6:04 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting nymore:
always a spin. I was going to ask you how derived a trend to compare from decade to decade from RSS or UAH when the info does not start till 1979.

I used 1979-2008, and 1982 - 2011. It's about all you can do with the satellite data at this point. But they both show accelerated warming. (Caveat: I don't know if it's statistically significant...and I'm not going to try to determine it at 1 AM EST. But I suspect it is not.)
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443. nymore 6:09 AM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Well gentlemen it has been a pleasure good debate have a good night Rookie and Birthmark.

What do you say we go out with Frankie warning Colorado if nothing else he is passionate and I love this guy.

img src="">
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444. Xandra 12:36 PM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting NeapolitanFan:


You are guilty of what I get accused of every time I show data -- cherrypicking. You use one town on the entire earth as an example. Ok, get rid of the magic mushrooms.

No, I'm not guilty of cherry picking. It's Archibald who is using data from individual temperature stations in his predictions, not me.

Quote Archibald:

"If the month of minimum for the Solar Cycle 23 to 24 transition is July 2009, this would make Solar Cycle 23 over thirteen years long. This in turn would mean that it would be 3.2 years longer than Solar Cycle 22, and imply that the annual average temperature of Hanover, New Hampshire will be 2.2° C cooler during Solar Cycle 24 than it had been on average over Solar Cycle 23."
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445. Xandra 12:39 PM GMT on March 08, 2012    
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446. Neapolitan 2:40 PM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Xandra:


That's perfect. The only thing is, on certain major cable news networks that start with the letter 'F', Roger would be given both the first word and the last word, and he'd spend most of his time ridiculing Dr. Jenkins for having a degree--and the host/moderator would tend to mostly side with him.
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447. Ossqss 4:39 PM GMT on March 08, 2012    
AR1429 soon to deliver some impact.



Realtime plots if interested. Back to work :)

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/rt_plots/index.html
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448. overwash12 5:18 PM GMT on March 08, 2012    
WASHINGTON -- The warmth last month wasn't a mirage: January 2012 was the USA's 4th-warmest January on record, federal climate scientists announced on Tuesday.

The national average temperature in January was 36.3 degrees F, which is 5.5 degrees F above the long-term average and the warmest since 2006, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's National Climatic Data Center. The other warmer Januarys were in 1990 and 1953.

The data is based on records dating back to 1895.

( Based on a 117 year record!)
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449. cyclonebuster 7:39 PM GMT on March 08, 2012    
Quoting Birthmark:

Thin, sir. Mighty thin.

And it's getting thinner every year.

Thanks for asking. Hope that helps.


Thinner and less volume/massive!



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450. NeapolitanFan 9:01 PM GMT on March 08, 2012    
James Hansen doesn't like the temperature so he simply changes the data:

Link
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451. Neapolitan 1:02 AM GMT on March 09, 2012    
Quoting NeapolitanFan:
James Hansen doesn't like the temperature so he simply changes the data:

Link
James Hansen tells it like it is:


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About RickyRood
I'm a professor at U Michigan and lead a course on climate change problem solving. These articles include ideas from the course. And no tuition!

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