Don't shoot the messenger

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 3:13 PM GMT on December 06, 2009

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Monday, December 7, marks the opening of the U.N. Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen, Denmark. At that meeting, the leaders of the world will gather to negotiate an agreement to replace the 1997 Kyoto Protocol. The new agreement will be the world's road map for dealing with climate change, and the stakes are huge. It is fitting that the conference begins on the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, for the Copenhagen conference is sure to be an epic political battle. Indeed, the battle has already been underway for several weeks, with most of the action centering on a PR assault launched by the anti-CO2 regulation forces that sensationalized the contents of the hacked emails from the University of East Anglia. The Wall Street Journal has long been at the forefront of the battle to discredit the science of climate change and the scientists involved, and last week they launched a major offensive, publishing multiple opinion pieces. I'll critique one of these, a December 1 editorial by Bret Stephens which accuses climate scientists of having a vested interest in promoting alarmist views of the climate in order to get research funding. "All of them have been on the receiving end of climate change-related funding, so all of them must believe in the reality (and catastrophic imminence) of global warming just as a priest must believe in the existence of God", Stephens wrote.

Money
It's always wise to follow the money when analyzing the motivations of people. However, Ph.D. atmospheric scientists are less motivated by money than, say, the typical reader of the Wall Street Journal. I am an example of that. Nobody owns more shares of Wunderground.com than I do, yet here I am criticizing the Wall Street Journal and some of the richest and most powerful corporations on the planet--hardly the sort of action that will generate more revenue for my company. Our top climate scientists are some of the most brilliant people on the planet. They could have easily made fortunes on Wall Street devising intricate schemes to hawk sub-prime mortgages or leverage obscure derivatives. Yet these people chose climate science as a career, out of a genuine curiosity about how the world works and desire to help find the truth of whether human-caused climate change poses a significant threat to humanity. The charges that these scientists are exaggerating the danger of human-caused global warming to get more funding is a personal attack on their integrity--a typical politician's ploy to avoid talking about the issues, when one has no valid arguments to bolster one's position. In my 29 years in the weather business, I've had the honor of working with many of the world's top weather and climate scientists. I can personally vouch for their integrity and commitment to pursue the scientific truth, no matter what that truth turns out to be. These are honest, incredibly hard-working public servants who are enduring a punishing assault on their integrity because they are the bearers of bad news. The Earth has plenty of pressing problems requiring the services of brilliant scientists; these public servants will always have a job, and have no need to exaggerate dangers or invent new threats in order to get more research funding. If one reads through the entire set of 3,000 emails hacked from the University of East Anglia--not just the choice few lines excerpted from chosen emails, and then spun by the anti-CO2 regulation lobby to make the scientists look bad--you will see that these scientists are the good guys. Never once is there a mention of fabricating data or fudging results to try to get more research funding. There is no conspiring to perpetate the massive "hoax" of human-caused global warming they have been accused of. Rather, we see a picture of some very smart, hardworking, and very human and imperfect scientists that are doing their best to learn the truth, and pass that information on to the rest of us. You don't get ahead in scince by fudging the data. It's publish or perish. While the peer-review system of publication is not perfect, it generally does an excellent job of rewarding those scientists who seek to publish the truth, and rejects those who do not. Published papers that turn out to be false will, in time, crumble under the weight of subsequent studies that do uncover the truth. Smart scientists tend to have big egos and hate being wrong, so there is additional motivation to publish truthful studies that will withstand the test of time and be validated by subsequent research.

Alarmism
Mr. Stephens uses the words "alarm" or "alarmist" four times in the editorial, and he is clearly trying to provoke an emotional reaction against those Chicken Littles guilty of raising the alarm. Speaking as an atmospheric scientist, I can tell you from long experience that we are not the wild-eyed, alarmist lot that the Wall Street Journal makes us out to be. This makes for some very dull parties (if you're not excited about discussing quasi-geostrophic theory), when we get together for a big bash. Very little alarming behavior takes place. (In fact, after I dragged my wife to three straight devastatingly dull departmental Christmas parties while I was in graduate school, she forbade me from ever requiring her to go to another.) Atmospheric scientists are not an alarmist lot--put us in quiet room with a window and give us a computer and pile of data to analyze, and we'll be as happy as a clam at high tide. The portrayal of climate scientists as alarmist, money-grubbing, dishonest hucksters out to destroy the economy to further their own selfish desires for money or fame is a common theme in climate change denial attacks, and is a very narrow-minded and ignorant one. It's more convenient to shoot the messenger than to acknowledge the truth of the bad news they're bringing.

Toleration of false alarms
It is possible that the alarms climate scientists are raising over climate change will turn out to be false. Environmental scientists have in the past issued false alarms over environmental problems that did not materialize as expected. However, we should expect and tolerate some degree of false alarms, given the uncertainty in forecasting these events. If our scientists never issue a false alarm, then the tolerance for issuing alarms is not correct. Would you criticize the National Weather Service for issuing a tornado warning when a possible tornado signature is spotted on Doppler radar, since less than half of these signatures result in in an actual tornado touchdown? Or the National Hurricane Center for issuing a hurricane warning, since only 25% of the warned coast receives hurricane-force winds, on average? No, some degree of false alarms must be tolerated. Our weather forecasters are dedicated public servants, doing their job of warning the public when their best scientific judgment indicates that there might be a significant threat. It is no different with our climate scientists. They are predicting that there is a greater than 90% chance that most of the observed global warming is due to human causes. Climate scientists are extremely concerned about what their scientific results are saying, and are doing their utmost to warn a public resistant to acknowledging the danger. This resistance runs very deep among conservatives. A 2008 Pew Center poll found that 75% of Democrats with a college education believed that humans were responsible for global warming, while only 19% of college educated Republicans believed that. Conservatives' core belief that a capitalist, free market economy with limited regulation is the best economic system in the world is challenged by acknowledging that human-caused global warming is real and a threat. I greatly respect conservatives who can objectively evaluate the validity of global warming science while holding that core belief, for it is difficult to accept that the best economic system in the world could spawn such a self-destructive force. But as I detailed in a post last week, corporations, by law, exist to make a profit. If scientific research shows that a corporation's products may be harmful to the public health, it the obligation of the company to its shareholders to employ whatever legal means possible to cast doubt on this science, in order to protect profits. The profits of the richest and most powerful industry the planet has ever seen--the fossil fuel industry--are currently so threatened. Thus, we are being subject to history's greatest campaign to deny science, and it is keeping us from much-needed action to curb the danger. These voices are telling us what we want to hear--the danger is not real, the scientists are corrupt and are falsifying their data, the uncertainties are great, and that we cannot afford to change. But the laws of physics don't care about ideology or free market economies or election cycles. The overwhelming majority of our top climate scientists are saying that the laws of physics dictate that massive amounts of greenhouse gases, when added to the atmosphere, will cause warming that will be very damaging to civilization. If we are to limit that damage, we must act soon, for the approaching storm will grow ever stronger the longer we wait. Don't shoot the messengers-- they are on your side.

Other posts in this series
Embattled UK climate scientist steps down
The Manufactured Doubt industry and the hacked email controversy
Is more CO2 beneficial for Earth's ecosystems?

Next post
My timing of my next post will depend upon the weather.

Our Climate Change expert, Dr. Ricky Rood, is in Copenhagen for this week's crucial COP15 climate change treaty negotiations. Be sure to tune into his blog for updates on the talks. Wunderground has provided financial support for several University of Michigan students to attend the talks, and I may be featuring portions of their blogs over the coming weeks.

Jeff Masters

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1281. pseabury
3:04 PM GMT on December 10, 2009
From http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6951029.ece

"One scientist told The Times he felt under pressure to sign. “The Met Office is a major employer of scientists and has long had a policy of only appointing and working with those who subscribe to their views on man-made global warming,” he said. "

This messenger sings a different tune...
Member Since: May 28, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 3
1280. gippgig
4:01 AM GMT on December 09, 2009
Is anyone trying to do anything about all those coal mine fires?
Member Since: December 5, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 65
1279. AwakeInMaryland
5:29 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting StormChaser81:


Just beaten eggs in a bowl, it makes the bread chrums stick and locks in moisture.


THANKS! See you on the other side!

Gee, it was SO nice in here, too...cooking with WU!
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1278. StormChaser81
5:27 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting AwakeInMaryland:

YUM! Old Bay we've got, in spades!
Egg wash? Slightly beaten eggs?


Just beaten eggs in a bowl, it makes the bread chrums stick and locks in moisture.
Member Since: August 11, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 2315
1277. AwakeInMaryland
5:27 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting pearlandaggie:


yes, we're well aware of the green, murky, and chocolate milk varieties of ocean water (mostly chocolate milk!).

by the way, there is a new blog post.


YEA! THANKS NEW BLOG!

OLIVE OIL, yum, healthy... I'm hon-gry, too!!
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1276. StormChaser81
5:25 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting CaneWarning:


I guess I've only heard about it in Florida.


No it happens all around the world, we usually get really bad ones because of the gulf of mexico being like a bath tub, china gets them too.

The red tide starts real deep in the water column, then starts working its way to the surface, once near the surface it starts releasing the toxins that bother people breathing and kills fish and mammals.
Member Since: August 11, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 2315
1275. pearlandaggie
5:25 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting StormChaser81:


Blue water usually has to do with less freshwater or river run off. Freshwater and river runoff can cause algal blooms which changes the water to a greenish look. Less rain means less freshwater or river runoff. Lots of river runoff can turn ocean waters a murky brown basically from the fine sediments.


yes, we're well aware of the green, murky, and chocolate milk varieties of ocean water (mostly chocolate milk!).

by the way, there is a new blog post.
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
1274. AwakeInMaryland
5:24 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting StormChaser81:


Blackened fish is amazing, you can buy it at any super market, old bay seasoning makes a good blackened, there also pan frying it with butter lemon juice, and of course use a egg wash and bread chrums.

YUM! Old Bay we've got, in spades!
Egg wash? Slightly beaten eggs?
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1273. CaneWarning
5:24 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting AwakeInMaryland:
1266. Thanks for 'splaining. (Others, too!) So the good in the bad news was better eating fish, closer in?
In any case, happy fish fry! What's the best way to cook what you get? My husband isn't crazy about fish, and I'm thinking it's because I need better cooking methods/recipes. As I'm typing this...thinking fish is just better super-fresh. I remember that "blue" down at the shore was great because it was only a few hours old.


I like to bake my fish using olive oil and then add lemon juice! Great, now I'm hungry.
Member Since: April 26, 2009 Posts: 3 Comments: 3667
1272. StormChaser81
5:22 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting AwakeInMaryland:
1266. Thanks for 'splaining. So the good in the bad news was better eating fish, closer in?
In any case, happy fish fry! What's the best way to cook what you get? My husband isn't crazy about fish, and I'm thinking it's because I need better cooking methods/recipes. As I'm typing this...thinking fish is just better super-fresh. I remember that "blue" down at the shore was great because it was only a few hours old.


Blackened fish is amazing, you can buy it at any super market, old bay seasoning makes a good blackened, there also pan frying it with butter lemon juice, and of course use a egg wash and bread chrums.
Member Since: August 11, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 2315
1271. CaneWarning
5:20 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting StormChaser81:


Red Tide can happen in any ocean water.


I guess I've only heard about it in Florida.
Member Since: April 26, 2009 Posts: 3 Comments: 3667
1270. AwakeInMaryland
5:19 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
1266. Thanks for 'splaining. (Others, too!) So the good in the bad news was better eating fish, closer in?
In any case, happy fish fry! What's the best way to cook what you get? My husband isn't crazy about fish, and I'm thinking it's because I need better cooking methods/recipes. As I'm typing this...thinking fish is just better super-fresh. I remember that "blue" down at the shore was great because it was only a few hours old.
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1269. StormChaser81
5:19 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting CaneWarning:
Blue water is better than a red tide anyday. Do you have red tide in your area?


Red Tide can happen in any ocean water.
Member Since: August 11, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 2315
1268. CaneWarning
5:18 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Blue water is better than a red tide anyday. Do you have red tide in your area?
Member Since: April 26, 2009 Posts: 3 Comments: 3667
1267. StormChaser81
5:17 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting pearlandaggie:
1265. i figured someone would ask. no, the bluewater is not typically close to shore. we offshore fisherman have to go out 40 miles or more at times to reach the better-fishing bluewater. the greener waters typically contain a lot of king mackerel that aren't that great to eat and can slice up tackle and halve small snappers.


Blue water usually has to do with less freshwater or river run off. Freshwater and river runoff can cause algal blooms which changes the water to a greenish look. Less rain means less freshwater or river runoff. Lots of river runoff can turn ocean waters a murky brown basically from the fine sediments.
Member Since: August 11, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 2315
1266. pearlandaggie
5:10 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
1265. i figured someone would ask. no, the bluewater is not typically close to shore. we offshore fisherman have to go out 40 miles or more at times to reach the better-fishing bluewater. the greener waters typically contain a lot of king mackerel that aren't that great to eat and can slice up tackle and halve small snappers.
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
1265. AwakeInMaryland
5:06 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Pearland, is blue water close to your shore bad? I'm obviously missing something.
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1264. pearlandaggie
5:02 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
with all the rain we've had in the last few weeks, i was surprised to find that we're still a couple of inches below normal. mind you, the situation is much better, but i guess i really underestimated the severity of the drought we were experiencing. i guess that's why the bluewater was so close to shore this summer! :)
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
1263. AwakeInMaryland
4:58 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
LOL LOL LOL
Funny, my kid likes The Doors more than I do!
I saw them in Baltimore back in...never mind...a lady doesn't disclose her age; me neither.

OKAAAAAY, then...who's got weather?
Atmo's got flooding in the neighborhood.

Sunny and chilly here. Still boring, but waiting for that icy mix tonight. Then I'll wish for boring!
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1262. tornadodude
4:55 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
you guys are too funny :)
Member Since: June 28, 2006 Posts: 25 Comments: 8360
1261. pearlandaggie
4:53 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
1260. oh, my! LOL

...Girl, we couldn't get much higher
Come on baby, light my fire...

LOL...see, there i go again..."lowering the rhetoric"!
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
1260. AwakeInMaryland
4:52 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting pearlandaggie:
1257. i think you misunderstood my use of the word "elevated"! LOL

j/k :)


Yes, it's much too early in the day to get high, er, I haven't done that since the 80's, YIKES, there goes the old security clearance...

Pearland: "Oh My...tsk tsk."
T-Dude: (:
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1259. pearlandaggie
4:48 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
1257. i think you misunderstood my use of the word "elevated"! LOL

j/k :)
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
1258. pearlandaggie
4:48 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
1256. as if! LOL
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
1257. AwakeInMaryland
4:46 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting pearlandaggie:
well, the rhetoric was certainly elevated in here while i was out....

MOI? Why, thank you, BLUSH (AS IF, lol.)
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1256. CaneWarning
4:44 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting pearlandaggie:
well, the rhetoric was certainly elevated in here while i was out....


You were supposed to stay and keep the peace!
Member Since: April 26, 2009 Posts: 3 Comments: 3667
1255. pearlandaggie
4:43 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
well, the rhetoric was certainly elevated in here while i was out....
Member Since: September 14, 2007 Posts: 3 Comments: 3963
1254. AwakeInMaryland
4:41 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
National Situation Update: Tuesday, December 8, 2009
Homeland Security Threat Level: YELLOW (ELEVATED).
Significant National Weather

A major winter storm will move across the Midwest today. The storm center will make it to the Great Lakes by Wednesday. For the latest information on the weather expected with this storm visit the Hydrometeorological Prediction Center at www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/wwd/winter_wx.shtml.

West:
Snow is falling across higher elevations of the Southwest. Expect blizzard conditions with heavy snow and winds of 20 to 40 mph with gusts over 60 mph. Total snow amounts of two to four feet are expected with blowing and drifting snow due to the strong winds. Locally heavy rain showers are possible during the morning in southern Arizona and the lower elevations of New Mexico. Skies will clear and precipitation will end this afternoon as the low pressure system moves east. However, gusty winds will continue into the evening.

Midwest:
The low will produce moderate to heavy snow from the Plains into the Upper Mississippi Valley. With sustained winds of 15 to 30 mph and gusts over 40 mph, blizzard conditions are likely. Supplied by moisture from the Gulf of Mexico, the storm will produce a wintry mix over the central Mississippi and Ohio valleys. Tomorrow, the western part of the region begins to clear out but snow will continue to fall around the Great Lakes and the northern and central Mississippi Valley. Snowfall amounts of a foot or more are possible by the time the storm ends.

South:
Moisture from the Gulf of Mexico will be pulled northward over eastern Texas, the southern Plains and the lower Mississippi Valley. Tonight the storm will spread heavy rain across the rest of the Southeast all the way to the Atlantic Coast. During the afternoon and early evening, severe thunderstorms (gusty winds large hail and even tornadoes) are possible over the central Gulf Coast and the Carolinas.
Tomorrow the precipitation will have moved eastward into the Carolinas, Georgia and northern Florida with showers and a few thunderstorms. Rainfall totals are expected to be between one to four inches.

Northeast:
The region will start the day under high pressure but the approaching low pressure system will bring a wintry mix of rain, sleet and freezing rain to West Virginia, Virginia and southwest Pennsylvania by this afternoon. The mixed precipitation should turn to freezing rain by midnight and rain by Wednesday morning. The band of precipitation will continue to move northward reaching northern New York and central New England by tomorrow morning where it will gradually turn into a rain event. The Mid-Atlantic will receive the most precipitation with more than an inch. ( NOAA%u2019s National Weather Service, Various Media Sources)

High surf warning for Hawaii

A very large northwest swell generated over the North Pacific Ocean a few days ago will continue to bring dangerous and possibly damaging surf to exposed shores facing north, west and east through Wednesday. High surf warning is in effect for shores facing north and west on Niihau, Kauai, Oahu, Molokai, Maui and facing west and northeast on the Big Island. Surf of 30 to 40 feet will continue along north facing shore with some sets of 50 feet on the outer reefs tonight through Wednesday. Surf along west facing shores will be to 30 feet. The high surf, combined with a two foot high tide Tuesday morning, will increase the chance of waves washing onto roads and property along the immediate coast.
This event is being compared to a historical large surf event which took place Dec. 1-4, 1969. People going near the beach in affected areas are being advised to stay away from the water due to dangerous swimming conditions and deadly rip currents. (National Weather Service Honolulu HI)

Hazard Assessment (10 Dec -21 Dec 2009)

* Dec 10: Heavy, lake-effect snow downwind of the Great Lakes
* Dec 10-11: Much below normal temperatures spreading south and east across the central and eastern CONUS
* Dec 10-13: Much below normal temperatures for eastern Montana and the northern Plains
* Dec 12-16: Periods of heavy precipitation for northern and central California
* Dec 13-14: Much below normal temperatures for eastern Alaska
* Severe drought in parts of Wisconsin, Texas, and areas in the western U.S. Some relief is expected across the western U.S.(NWS, Climate Prediction Center)

Tropical Weather Outlook

No new activity (FEMA HQ)

Earthquake Activity

No new activity (FEMA HQ)
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1253. AwakeInMaryland
4:36 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
T-Dude? Grothar's an AUSSIE?? OMG.
Just kidding. I have no idea what that says.
All I know is a few words of German and some great Yiddish insults.
Nothing funnier than a couple of decades ago, one of the kids from Iowa was semi-swearing in the Yiddish he'd picked up from our New York colleague!
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1252. tornadodude
4:29 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting AwakeInMaryland:

Sheeeeeeeet, I thought it was philosophy.

Gestalt: The whole is more than the sum of its parts.

Is that high German? (LOL, the blog was having language lessons in here last night! All I could do was lurk, because Je ne comprende pas!)
\

haha I am trying to learn German and Swiss-German :P

Grothar muß ein aussehen heute bilden, wir vermissen ihn
Member Since: June 28, 2006 Posts: 25 Comments: 8360
1251. AwakeInMaryland
4:28 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting hurricanejunky:
Almost 12" of snow in Arizona? Holy crap! Does that happen often? I'm not terribly familiar with Arizona's annual snowfall amounts.

A guess, not a particularly well-educated one :)
Flagstaff, yes
Tucson, no
Phoenix, no
Sedona, gorgeous, who cares?
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1250. hurricanejunky
4:25 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Almost 12" of snow in Arizona? Holy crap! Does that happen often? I'm not terribly familiar with Arizona's annual snowfall amounts.
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
1249. AwakeInMaryland
4:24 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting tornadodude:
1246:

holy moly, a weather post :P

Sheeeeeeeet, I thought it was philosophy.

Gestalt: The whole is more than the sum of its parts.

Is that high German? (LOL, the blog was having language lessons in here last night! All I could do was lurk, because Je ne comprende pas!)
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1248. tornadodude
4:21 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
1246:

holy moly, a weather post :P
Member Since: June 28, 2006 Posts: 25 Comments: 8360
1247. hurricanejunky
4:20 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting PensacolaDoug:
Its one thing to have Gore and Company set up a "Carbon Credit" credit business that sells a product that people (companies) want to buy. Thats "Free-enterprise". I'm all for it.
Its another thing to set up the the business and then scare and/or hood-wink the world and get the Government to change the laws and MANDATE that they MUST do business with you. What a sweet deal if you can make it happen.
Gore has found a way and has been working towards it for years. Don't be blinded by ideology.


Yes Doug, don't be blinded by ideology, words to live by. What laws have been enacted that Al Gore is profiting from? Just curious...

I assume you were outraged when the Bush administration was awarding no-bid contracts to Haliburton and other ripoff artists that proceeded to war profiteer and make OBSCENE profits, sometimes at the expense of the men and women in the military. Now THAT was a hood-winking. I'm glad your outrage doesn't discriminate.
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
1246. AwakeInMaryland
4:20 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Holy Moly. The whole is bigger than the sum of its parts...

Video accompanies story:
Link

AP Story, in part:


Fierce snowstorm gains strength after hitting West

By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press Writer

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – A howling winter storm barreled through the West, hitting the mountain states with snow and fierce winds as it headed toward the country's midsection on Tuesday.

The far-reaching storm system stretched from California to Indiana, gathering strength as it raced eastward.

Parts of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa and Wisconsin were bracing for blizzard conditions and up to 10 inches of snow, according to the National Weather Service.

"The storm system is really strengthening as it goes, and that's usually a recipe for some heavy snowfall and a lot of wind, and that's what we're watching for," said Mike Welvaert of the National Weather Service in La Crosse, Wis.

The storm hit nearly all of the western mountain states on Monday, leaving places like Flagstaff and Reno, Nev., under a thick blanket of snow. Heavy rain raised fears of mudslides in wildfire-devastated Southern California, but no damage was reported. The weather system also snarled traffic and closed schools in Indiana, and crashes caused one death.

In the Phoenix area, fierce wind brought down power lines, left four hospitals temporarily without power and created wide outages. At one point, some 250,000 customers were without power; by early Tuesday, that number was down to about 58,000, a spokesman for Arizona Public Service Co. said.

The storm system lingered over the West on Tuesday.

On Monday, virtually the entire Western region was hit by wintry weather — from subzero wind chills in Washington state to heavy snow that closed schools and government offices in Reno, Nev. Big rigs were left jackknifed across highways in several states. (story continues...)
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1245. hydrus
4:19 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting PensacolaDoug:
Its one thing to have Gore and Company set up a "Carbon Credit" credit business that sells a product that people (companies) want to buy. Thats "Free-enterprise". I'm all for it.
Its another thing to set up the the business and then scare and/or hood-wink the world and get the Government to change the laws and MANDATE that they MUST do business with you. What a sweet deal if you can make it happen.
Gore has found a way and has been working towards it for years. Don't be blinded by ideology.
Nothing like being fatigued into compliance by big government. Next thing you know if we are not buying there merchandise people will be charged with neglect.
Member Since: September 27, 2007 Posts: 1 Comments: 21507
1244. presslord
4:17 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
it was once thought that trying to stop polio was a fool's errand...
Member Since: August 13, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 10492
1243. CaneWarning
4:16 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting Buhdog:
Canes...

It was just the reflection of the sun on one solo Cumulus tower! Really weird...my kids thought a nuke went off! Here is another shot that my buddy took from the other side of town.
Link


That's really cool.
Member Since: April 26, 2009 Posts: 3 Comments: 3667
1242. PensacolaDoug
4:16 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
BBL to continue this. :)
Member Since: July 25, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 581
1241. presslord
4:15 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting PensacolaDoug:
Its one thing to have Gore and Company set up a "Carbon Credit" credit business that sells a product that people (companies) want to buy. Thats "Free-enterprise". I'm all for it.
Its another thing to set up the the business and then scare and/or hood-wink the world and get the Government to change the laws and MANDATE that they MUST do business with you. What a sweet deal if you can make it happen.
Gore has found a way and has been working towards it for years. Don't be blinded by ideology.


it happens all the time...in a wide variety of industries...
Member Since: August 13, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 10492
1240. PensacolaDoug
4:08 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Its one thing to have Gore and Company set up a "Carbon Credit" credit business that sells a product that people (companies) want to buy. Thats "Free-enterprise". I'm all for it.
Its another thing to set up the the business and then scare and/or hood-wink the world and get the Government to change the laws and MANDATE that they MUST do business with you. What a sweet deal if you can make it happen.
Gore has found a way and has been working towards it for years. Don't be blinded by ideology.
Member Since: July 25, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 581
1239. h0ff13
4:07 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting calusakat:
Lets look past the smokescreen of falsified weather data. Lets forget about the shills who spout the IPCC/AGW propaganda...we know who he/they are.


...snip...


Destructive self-serving, pocket lining fraud is being perpetrated upon the entire globe. A socialist/communist (From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.) ruse whose intent is not in helping anyone but themselves.



Well done. The internet is going to be the globalist/socialist/money trust downfall - slowly the number of people is rising who have been able to lift their thinking out of the mire of Democrats VS Reblicans, AGW VS Capitalism, Liberal VS Conservative - and have seen above the divide and conquer strategy of the elite - and seen the real conflict - freedom VS tyranny.
1238. hurricanejunky
4:05 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting AwakeInMaryland:
Thanks, Junky.

I was lucky enough to be at the Democratic convention in Los Angeles; not as a participant, but to do educational & informational programming on the U.S. Election process. Anyone who has an opportunity should go to one, either side. It is a wacky process but it's inspiring and still manages to be, dare I say, fun.
Canadians have better food at their "do's", though!


Sounds like fun!
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
1237. RTLSNK
4:04 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting HurricaneNewbie:
Ok enough of the philosophy. What kind of storms are brewing for central GA?


Forecast for Macon = Rain. :)

Member Since: September 3, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 21282
1236. Buhdog
4:01 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Canes...

It was just the reflection of the sun on one solo Cumulus tower! Really weird...my kids thought a nuke went off! Here is another shot that my buddy took from the other side of town.
Link
Member Since: July 30, 2005 Posts: 1 Comments: 960
1235. hurricanejunky
4:00 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting HurricaneNewbie:
The only point I was trying to make is that the earth will recover man-made or not. This is not the first time this has happened and will not be the last. The only question is whether or not we survive. We spent millions of dollars trying to find a way to stop a hurricane. Man lets his ego get out of control trying to think that he can actualy stop the natural cycles of the earth.


Understood. I think your points are valid.
I don't think trying to stop hurricanes is in the same realm as trying to reduce C02 emissions though. I think it's foolish to try stopping hurricanes because they are such complex beasts and so many factors (some unknown) go into their development and subsequent existence. Atmospheric C02 concentration is cause and effect. If we stop dumping billions upon billions upon billions of tons of C02 into the atmosphere (not to mention the other toxic pollutants) or at least try mitigating it, MAYBE we can bring that atmospheric concentration down some or at least slow the increase. I'm no expert but it seems pretty basic to me.
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
1234. CaneWarning
3:59 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting atmoaggie:

This part "THE GOODBEE COMMUNITY IS THREATENED WITH FLOODING" is a little concerning. Not heavily populated, or anything, but I don't wish to see a dozen neighbors with water in the house. Bad Christmas present. Far worse than coal in the stocking.


Hopefully it won't get into the houses! It's certainly an El Nino winter it seems.
Member Since: April 26, 2009 Posts: 3 Comments: 3667
1233. AwakeInMaryland
3:58 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Thanks, Junky.

I was lucky enough to be at the Democratic convention in Los Angeles; not as a participant, but to do educational & informational programming on the U.S. Election process. Anyone who has an opportunity should go to one, either side. It is a whacky process but it's inspiring and still manages to be, dare I say, fun.
Canadians have better food at their "do's", though!
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
1232. atmoaggie
3:56 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting CaneWarning:
atmo,hopefully the flooding will not find any buildings! It looks like mostly campground and parking lots!

This part "THE GOODBEE COMMUNITY IS THREATENED WITH FLOODING" is a little concerning. Not heavily populated, or anything, but I don't wish to see a dozen neighbors with water in the house. Bad Christmas present. Far worse than coal in the stocking.
Member Since: August 16, 2007 Posts: 6 Comments: 12463
1231. CaneWarning
3:54 PM GMT on December 08, 2009
Quoting hurricanejunky:


WOW! Last night it was like a wall around the house the fog was so thick. Samne thing this morning and it started lifting around 9am. Crazy fog! Pretty cool though...


Yeah I like the fog as long as I'm not driving in it!
Member Since: April 26, 2009 Posts: 3 Comments: 3667

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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