Dr. Ricky Rood's Climate Change Blog

Heat Waves (4) A Climate Case Study:
Posted by: Dr. Ricky Rood, 6:26 AM GMT on July 19, 2011 +9
Heat Waves (4) A Climate Case Study:

In the last article I wrote that the extreme events of 2011 were providing us with the opportunity to think about climate and how to cope with a warming world. The U.S. is experiencing an extreme heat event this week (Masters @ WU). This heat wave is the consequence of a strong, stationary high pressure system over the central U.S., and it will move to the east over the next few days. Back on July 14th The Capital Weather Gang did a nice write up on the forecast of the heat wave. At the end of this blog are links to my previous blogs on heat waves and human health.

When thinking about weather, climate, and extreme events an important idea is “persistence.” For example, a heat wave occurs when there are persistent high temperatures. Persistent weather patterns occur when high and low pressure systems get large and stuck; that is, they don’t move. In the Figure below, you need to imagine North America and the United States. There is a high pressure center over the proverbial Heartland. With blue arrows I have drawn the flow of air around the high pressure system, and in this case moist air. There is moisture coming from the Gulf of Mexico and, in fact on the date when this was drawn, from the Pacific. This is common in the summer to see both the Gulf of Mexico and Pacific as sources of continental moisture.



Figure 1: Schematic of a high pressure system over the central United States in July. While generic, this is drawn to represent some of the specifics of 2011. The green-shaded area is where there have been floods in 2011. The brown-shaded area represents sustained drought in the southern part of the nation.

At the center of this high pressure system there is a suppression of rain, because the air is moving downward. This sets up a situation where the surface heats from the Sun’s energy. There is not much mixing and cooling, because of the suppression of the upward motion that produces rain. Hence, if this high pressure system gets stuck, then there is persistent heat. This is a classic summer heat wave.

Let’s think about it some more. There is lot of moisture being drawn around the edge of the high pressure system, and this moisture contributes to the discomfort of people. People – just a short aside about people: if we think about heat and health, then we are concerned about people’s ability to cool themselves. It is more difficult to cool people when it is humid because sweat does not evaporate. Suppose that in addition to this moisture, there is a region where the ground is soaked with water from flooding. Then on top of already moist air coming from the Gulf, there is local evaporation into the air being warmed by the Sun. If on the interior of the high, where the rain is suppressed, there is hot, wet air, then it becomes dangerous heat.

It’s not easy to derive a number that describes dangerous heat. But in much of the eastern U.S. a number that somehow combines temperature and humidity is useful. Meteorologists often use the heat index. It’s the summer time version of “it’s 98 degrees, but it feels like 105.” For moist climates, the heat index is one version of the “it feels like” temperature. Jeff Masters tells me that in Newton, Iowa yesterday, July 17, 2011, the heat index was 126 degrees F. (see here, and 131 F in Knoxville, Iowa on July 18)

Another measure of heat and humidity is the dew point; that is, the temperature at which dew forms, and effectively limits the nighttime low. The dew points in Iowa, South Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin are currently very high and setting records. Here is a map of dew point for July 19, 2011.



Figure 2: Exceptionally high dew points centered on Iowa.


Now if I was a public health official, and I was trying to understand how a warming planet might impact my life, then here is how I would think about it. First, the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific are going to be warmer, and hence, there will be more humid air. This will mean, with regard to human health for the central U.S., heat waves will become more dangerous, without necessarily becoming hotter. It is also reasonable to expect heat waves will become more frequent and last longer, because those persistent, stuck high pressure systems are, in part, forced by the higher sea surface temperatures. If I am a public health official here is my algorithm – heat waves are already important to my life, and they are likely to get more dangerous, more frequent, and of longer duration. But by how much? Do I need to know by how much before I decide on a plan for action?

If I think about the air being more humid, then I might expect to see trends in the heat index. I might expect to see trends in dew points, and trends in the nighttime minimum temperatures getting higher. (That’s where a greenhouse effect really matters.) I worry about persistent heat, warm nights, and the inability of people and buildings to cool themselves. I worry about their being dangerous heat in places where people and emergency rooms are not used to dangerous heat – not acclimated to heat – not looking for heat-related illness.

Let’s go back to the figure. Rain is suppressed in the middle of the high pressure system, but around the edge of the high pressure system it will rain; there will be storms. (see Figure 3 at the end) The air around the edge of high is warm and very wet. Wet air is energetic air, and it is reasonable to expect local severe storms. (See Severe Storm on Lake Michigan) And if the high pressure is persistent, stuck, then days of extreme weather are possible. If this pattern sets up, then there is increased likelihood of flooding. If I am that public health official, then I am alerted to the possibility of more extreme weather and the dangers thereof. But, again, can the increase of extreme weather be quantified? Do I need to quantify it before I decide on a plan of action?

Still with the figure - what about that region of extended drought and the heat from the high pressure system? Dehydration becomes a more important issue. As a public health official, I start to see the relation of the heat event to other aspects of the weather, the climate. I see the relation to drought. I see the flood, and it’s relation to the winter snow pack and spring rains.

So what I have presented here is to look at the local mechanisms of the weather – what are the basic underlying physics responsible for hot and cold, wet and dry – for moist air? If I stick to these basic physics, and let the climate model frame the more complex regional and global picture, what can I say about the future? Do I have to have a formal prediction to take action? Here in 2011, I see drought and flood and hot weather and warm oceans that interact together to make a period of sustained, dangerous heat. It does not have to “set a record” to convey the reality of the warming earth. It tells me the type of event that is likely to come more often, of longer duration, and of, perhaps, of greater intensity. If I am a public health planner, then I can know this with some certainty. The question becomes, how do I use that information in my planning?

r



Figure 3: Radar loop showing precipitation around the edge of the large high pressure system in the middle of the continent. July 19, 2011.

Previous Blogs on Heat Waves

Hot in Denver: Heat Waves (1)

Heat Waves (2): Heat and Humans

Heat Waves (3): Role of Global Warming




Categories: Climate Change Heat
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551. JBastardi 11:16 PM GMT on July 22, 2011    
Quoting Patrap:
Arctic sea ice continues its record retreat


Sea ice in the Arctic continues to melt at the fastest pace in recorded history, as July ice extent has been averaging 5 - 10% less than the record low values set in 2007. According to the July 18 update from the National Snow and Ice Data Center, the rapid decline in the past few weeks is related to persistent above-average temperatures, and an early onset of the melting season due to especially low snow cover in Europe and Asia during May and June. High pressure and clear skies have dominated in the Arctic this summer, but that pattern is changing. The latest 2-week forecast from the GFS model shows that low pressure will dominate the Arctic for the next two weeks, bringing cloudier skies and less melting. This will likely slow down the melting enough so that sea ice loss will no longer be on a record pace by the 2nd week of August.


More warmist slippery language. Just exactly what is "recorded history"? The last 30 years? Give me a break.
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
552. Neapolitan 11:52 PM GMT on July 22, 2011    
Quoting Ossqss:


It is preferable that you source your information for us. TIA L8R>

I've done so many times. I bookmark all relevant links from all members for ready access and reference, and assume others do the same.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11302
553. Neapolitan 12:05 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:
Yet another failed IPCC prediction. Pretty soon, nothing they have predicted will come to pass.

Link

Thanks for posting this most excellent example of denialism. Both the graph and the text talk of the number fires, yet neither talks about the extent of them, which--as any honest person knows--is much more relevant for purposes of comparison. Does that writer even know about, say, the record-obliterating 3,327,000 acres (5,200 square miles) that have burnt in Texas alone this fire season (11/10/2010 through now)?

As of Wednesday,
Canada had seen 2,622 fires in 2011, which is--oh no!--only 58% of the 10-year average. But more telling: so far 2,117,593 square kilometers have burnt, 169% of that same 10-year average. Only someone simple or dishonest would focus on that former number while ignoring the more important latter.

Again, thanks.
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554. Ossqss 12:13 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

I've done so many times. I bookmark all relevant links from all members for ready access and reference, and assume others do the same.


Ok, so share the source of the information you posted in 549. It's not hard to do.
Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
555. Patrap 12:13 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
556. Patrap 12:16 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Current Severe Weather

Excessive Heat Warning

Statement as of 7:47 PM EDT on July 22, 2011

... Excessive heat warning remains in effect until 10 PM EDT this
evening...
... Excessive heat warning remains in effect from 10 am to 8 PM
EDT Saturday...

* temperature... high temperatures Saturday around 100.

* Heat index values... up to 112.

Precautionary/preparedness actions...

An excessive heat warning means that a prolonged period of
dangerously hot temperatures will occur. The combination of hot
temperatures and high humidity will create a dangerous situation
in which heat illnesses are likely. Drink plenty of water... stay
in an air-conditioned room... stay out of the sun... and check on
relatives and neighbors.

Take extra precautions if you work or spend time outside. When
possible... reschedule strenuous activities to early morning or
evening. Know the signs and symptoms of heat exhaustion and heat
stroke. Wear lightweight and loose-fitting clothing.

To reduce risk during outdoor work... the occupational safety and
health administration recommends scheduling frequent rest breaks
in shaded or air-conditioned environments. Anyone overcome by
heat should be moved to a cool and shaded location. Heat stroke
is an emergency - call 9 1 1.






Air Quality Alert

Statement as of 4:28 PM EDT on July 22, 2011

... Air quality alert is in effect for Saturday July 23 2011...

The metropolitan Washington Council of governments in association
with Maryland department of the environment, Virginia department
of environmental quality, and district department of environment has
issued a code red air quality alert Saturday for the DC Metro area.

A code red air quality alert means that air pollution concentrations
within the region are unhealthful for the general population. The
effects of air pollution can be minimized by avoiding strenuous
activity or exercise outdoors.

For more information on ground-level ozone and fine particles...
visit www.Cleanairpartners.Net.



425 PM EDT Thu Jul 21 2011

... Air quality alert is in effect for Friday July 22 2011...

The metropolitan Washington Council of governments in association
with Maryland department of the environment, Virginia department
of environmental quality, and district department of environment has
issued a code red air quality alert Friday for the DC Metro area.

A code red air quality alert means that air pollution concentrations
within the region are unhealthful for the general population. The
effects of air pollution can be minimized by avoiding strenuous
activity or exercise outdoors.

For more information on ground-level ozone and fine particles...
visit www.Cleanairpartners.Net.



Record Report

Statement as of 05:30 PM EDT on July 22, 2011

... Record all time maximum temperature has been set at Washington
Dulles Airport Virginia...

A new record all time maximum temperature has been set at Washington
Dulles Airport of 105 degrees f at 352 PM EDT this Friday afternoon.

This breaks the old all time record Max of 104f set twice... on July
16 1988 and again on August 20 1983.

Official temperature records began on November 17 1962 at Dulles
Airport in northern Virginia.


Public Information Statement

Statement as of 6:48 PM EDT on July 22, 2011
public information statement
National Weather Service Baltimore MD/Washington DC
646 PM EDT Fri July 22 2011

... Maximum temperature and heat index...

The following list shows preliminary maximum temperatures and heat
indices so far for several locations on Friday July 22 2011 up
through 6 PM EDT...

Max Max
city temp f heat index f
Baltimore MD Inner Harbor... dmh 108 124
Washington DC Reagan natl... dca 102 121
Annapolis MD... ... ... ... ... .nak 101 119
Baltimore MD BWI Airport... .BWI 106r 118
Dulles VA Airport... ... ... ..iad 105r 117
Charlottesville VA... ... ... .cho 102 112
Martinsburg WV... ... ... ... ..mrb 103 111
Hagerstown MD... ... ... ... ... hgr 100 110

Baltimore MD-BWI broke a daily record high for the date.

Dulles Airport VA-broke its all time high temperature record... its
temperature records go back to Nov 1962.

Note... the NWS does not keep heat index records.
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 377 Comments: 112955
557. cyclonebuster 12:16 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


More warmist slippery language. Just exactly what is "recorded history"? The last 30 years? Give me a break.


So NOAA and NSIDC are warmist. LOL!
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 19030
558. nymore 12:19 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Forest fires are a terrible metric for either side to use to make a point as I have explained before if you can't understand why please ask and I will tell you. Also Canada does not suppress fires unless they are a threat to property
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2051
559. cyclonebuster 12:22 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Forest fires are a terrible metric for either side to use to make a point as I have explained before if you can't understand why please ask and I will tell you. Also Canada does not suppress fires unless they are a threat to property


Agreed.
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 19030
560. Ossqss 2:24 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Hummm, sorry, I will not ask any more questions. I , like many of you (in this box we look through and to), am just trying to add things up. It should add up, right? Oops, another question :(

Intermission?

Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
562. PurpleDrank 3:17 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

Thanks for posting this most excellent example of denialism. Both the graph and the text talk of the number fires, yet neither talks about the extent of them, which--as any honest person knows--is much more relevant for purposes of comparison. Does that writer even know about, say, the record-obliterating 3,327,000 acres (5,200 square miles) that have burnt in Texas alone this fire season (11/10/2010 through now)?

As of Wednesday,
Canada had seen 2,622 fires in 2011, which is--oh no!--only 58% of the 10-year average. But more telling: so far 2,117,593 square kilometers have burnt, 169% of that same 10-year average. Only someone simple or dishonest would focus on that former number while ignoring the more important latter.

Again, thanks.


Is man's interference of stopping fires prematurely contributing to changes in climate and ecosystems?





Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
563. cyclonebuster 3:36 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:


Is man's interference of stopping fires prematurely contributing to changes in climate and ecosystems?







An equal question would be what about the ones he starts?
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 19030
564. cyclonebuster 4:44 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Hey here is a novel idea. Why don't we just drill into a few volcanoes and cause them to erupt. That way we can cool the climate off some more or how about we make it law that we can only burn high sulfur fuel oil from now on? BTW high sulfur fuel oil is cheaper than low sulfur fuel oil. LOL!

NOAA study: Increase in particles high in Earth’s atmosphere has offset some recent climate warming

July 21, 2011

A recent increase in the abundance of particles high in the atmosphere has offset about a third of the current climate warming influence of carbon dioxide (CO2) change during the past decade, according to a new study led by NOAA and published today in the online edition of Science.

In the stratosphere, miles above Earth’s surface, small, airborne particles reflect sunlight back into space, which leads to a cooling influence at the ground. These particles are also called “aerosols," and the new paper explores their recent climate effects -- the reasons behind their increase remain the subject of ongoing research.

“Since the year 2000, stratospheric aerosols have caused a slower rate of climate warming than we would have seen without them,” says John Daniel, a physicist at the NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory (ESRL) in Boulder, Colo. and an author of the new study.

The new study focused on the most recent decade, when the amount of aerosol in the stratosphere has been in something of a “background” state, lacking sharp upward spikes from very large volcanic eruptions. The authors analyzed measurements from several independent sources – satellites and several types of ground instruments – and found a definitive increase in stratospheric aerosol since 2000.

“Stratospheric aerosol increased surprisingly rapidly in that time, almost doubling during the decade,” Daniel said. “The increase in aerosols since 2000 implies a cooling effect of about 0.1 watts per square meter – enough to offset some of the 0.28 watts per square meter warmingeffect from the carbon dioxide increase during that same period.”

The reasons for the 10-year increase in stratospheric aerosols are not fully understood and are the subject of ongoing research, says coauthor Ryan Neely, with the University of Colorado and the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES). Likely suspects are natural sources – smaller volcanic eruptions – and/or human activities, which could have emitted the sulfur-containing gases, such as sulfur dioxide, that react in the atmosphere to form reflective aerosol particles.

Daniel and colleagues with NOAA, CIRES, the University of Colorado, NASA, and the University of Paris used a climate model to explore how changes in the stratosphere’s aerosol content could affect global climate change – both in the last decade, and projected into the future. The team concluded that models miss an important cooling factor if they don’t account for the influence of stratospheric aerosol, or don’t include recent changes in stratospheric aerosol levels.

Moreover, future global temperatures will depend on stratospheric aerosol. The warming from greenhouse gases and aerosols calculated for the coming decade can vary by almost a factor of two — depending on whether aerosols continue to increase at the same rate as over the past decade, or if instead they decrease to very low levels, such as those experienced in 1960.

If stratospheric aerosol levels continue to increase, temperatures will not rise as quickly as they would otherwise, said Ellsworth Dutton, also with NOAA ESRL and a co-author on the paper. Conversely, if stratospheric aerosol levels decrease, temperatures would increase faster. Dutton and his colleagues use the term “persistently variable” to describe how the background levels of aerosol in Earth’s stratosphere can change from one decade to the next, even in the absence of major volcanic activity.
Lidar instruments - pointing up from the ground or down from satellites - use reflected light to measure the amounts of particles and their locations, which can influence climate.

Lidar instruments - pointing up from the ground or down from satellites - use reflected light to measure the amounts of particles and their locations, which can influence climate.

Download here. (Credit: CIRES/NOAA)

Ultimately, by incorporating the ups and downs of stratospheric aerosols, climate models will be able to give not only better estimates of future climate change, but also better explanations of past climate changes.

“The ‘background’ stratospheric aerosols are more of a player than we thought,” said Daniel. “The last decade has shown us that it doesn’t take an extremely large volcanic eruption for these aerosols to be important to climate.”

Authors of the paper are: Susan Solomon, University of Colorado; John Daniel, Chemical Sciences Division of NOAA’s Earth System Research Laboratory; Ryan Neely, CIRES-University of Colorado and NOAA-ESRL; J.P. Vernier, NASA-Langley Research Center and University of Paris; Ellsworth Dutton, Global Monitoring Division of NOAA-ESRL; and Larry Thomason, NASA-Langley.




Link






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565. PurpleDrank 4:55 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
probably less than..let's see, how about lightning



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566. PurpleDrank 4:56 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
why don't we induce nuclear winter at the pole

we can tough it out for a few years, just kick it in the shade

might be nice
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567. nymore 5:03 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
In other words we have no idea how the climate works thanks for telling us skeptics what we already knew
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568. yonzabam 10:15 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Most climate change deniers have a very superficial grasp of the subject and are not truth seekers.

Their position is an emotional one, which can be summarized as

"I don't like it, so I'm not having it"

You can't argue with that mentality, because argument is rational and their emotional response is irrational.

Are they still saying the world hasn't warmed since 1998?


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569. Neapolitan 10:46 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


No matter what the subject, you can always twist the facts. Must be Soros' nephew. In fact, you resemble him. How can anyone be so brain-dead? I guess you're being compensated for you worthless blather.

Nice scientific response, Muller. ;-)

To help clarify the issue for you, let's try a little reductio ad absurdum, shall we? Now, suppose there were a million fires that burnt a quarter acre each one summer. The following year, there was only one fire, but it consumed a hundred million acres. Now, would it still be your contention--and that of the halfwit who wrote the breathless article to which you linked--that the latter wasn't as bad as the former?

(BTW: George Soros is a great man, a far-reaching philanthropist, and a wildly successful capitalist. Therefore, I appreciate the comparison. Thank you.)
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570. nymore 11:00 AM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Neopolitan- So you would agree David H Koch is a great man being he is huge philanthropist and also wildly successful? I personally think they are both political trash but that is my opinion. The wildfire thing is garbage on both sides of the warming debate.
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571. greentortuloni 12:26 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting yonzabam:
Most climate change deniers have a very superficial grasp of the subject and are not truth seekers.

Their position is an emotional one, which can be summarized as

"I don't like it, so I'm not having it"

You can't argue with that mentality, because argument is rational and their emotional response is irrational.

Are they still saying the world hasn't warmed since 1998?




Nice article about mentality and factual belief.

Also this one.

So I ask myself: am I part of this? Do i instinctively hate what I see as the hate and corruption of the new GOP, Tea Party and denialist rhetoric so much that I can't even read a denialist article without apriori dimssing it?

I don't think I do that.... but who knows, maybe I do. So i offer up my choice again: fix the problem, real or not. If not real, we are free of oil and the discussion is moot. If real, we have saved the world.

I simply don't understand why anyone would want to be right so much that they are willing to risk the world for nothing.
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572. cyclonebuster 1:07 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:
probably less than..let's see, how about lightning





More storms more lightening.
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573. cyclonebuster 1:09 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:
why don't we induce nuclear winter at the pole

we can tough it out for a few years, just kick it in the shade

might be nice


How we keep it there and away from here?
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 19030
574. Neapolitan 1:24 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Neopolitan- So you would agree David H Koch is a great man being he is huge philanthropist and also wildly successful? I personally think they are both political trash but that is my opinion. The wildfire thing is garbage on both sides of the warming debate.

It's beyond the scope of this forum, obviously, but a side-by-side comparison of their respective philanthropic ventures may shed some light on the subject.

So far as "the wildfire thing" being garbage where discussions of climate change are concerned, I disagree. Long-term changes in climate patterns will result in conditions becoming favorable for increasing fires in many areas: longer and deeper droughts, warmer temperatures, etc. Some places will, of course, see more precipitation, and increasing CO2 will mean more verdant growth. But places with extant forests in states of decline due to the changing climate are ripe for fire--and that's precisely what's happening.

The largest fire in New Mexico's history is still smoldering. The largest fire in Arizona's history is still smoldering. Far more of Texas has burnt this year than ever before. In 2007, Georgia, Florida, and Utah saw their largest fires ever. And so on. And that is, of course, not even counting the recent historical wildfire events in Israel, Russia, Australia, Spain, and elsewhere.

While changes in forest- and fire-management policy certainly played a role in most or all of these fires, the fact remains that things are changing, period. That conclusion is inescapable.
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575. PurpleDrank 1:51 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

It's beyond the scope of this forum, obviously, but a side-by-side comparison of their respective philanthropic ventures may shed some light on the subject.

So far as "the wildfire thing" being garbage where discussions of climate change are concerned, I disagree. Long-term changes in climate patterns will result in conditions becoming favorable for increasing fires in many areas: longer and deeper droughts, warmer temperatures, etc. Some places will, of course, see more precipitation, and increasing CO2 will mean more verdant growth. But places with extant forests in states of decline due to the changing climate are ripe for fire--and that's precisely what's happening.

The largest fire in New Mexico's history is still smoldering. The largest fire in Arizona's history is still smoldering. Far more of Texas has burnt this year than ever before. In 2007, Georgia, Florida, and Utah saw their largest fires ever. And so on. And that is, of course, not even counting the recent historical wildfire events in Israel, Russia, Australia, Spain, and elsewhere.

While changes in forest- and fire-management policy certainly played a role in most or all of these fires, the fact remains that things are changing, period. That conclusion is inescapable.


over millions of years, gynospores evolved to reproduce through wild fires. The plant's cone seeds release at high temperature and thrive after the blaze because of a new canopy.

This suggests to me that wild fires were extremely frequent in the past for the plant to develope such a survival strategy.

The avg. global temperature then was probably very warm.

So, its clear a warmer climate increases fire potential.

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576. cyclonebuster 1:54 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
18th place now.





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577. PurpleDrank 1:57 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting cyclonebuster:


How we keep it there and away from here?


You can't. It would be a global event. Unilaterally planned.

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578. cyclonebuster 1:59 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
OUCH!














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579. cyclonebuster 2:00 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:


You can't. It would be a global event. Unilaterally planned.



OUCH!
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580. PurpleDrank 2:02 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
We get greener and greener, at great cost, yet the ice melts more. Seems pretty unstoppable to me.
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581. cyclonebuster 2:03 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:


over millions of years, gynospores evolved to reproduce through wild fires. The plant's cone seeds release at high temperature and thrive after the blaze because of a new canopy.

This suggests to me that wild fires were extremely frequent in the past for the plant to develope such a survival strategy.

The avg. global temperature then was probably very warm.

So, its clear a warmer climate increases fire potential.



Unless there are more deserts.
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582. cyclonebuster 2:08 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:
We get greener and greener, at great cost, yet the ice melts more. Seems pretty unstoppable to me.


Only Gulfsteam Kinetic energy can stop it within ten years. Only it has the capacity to both regulate sea surface temperature and regulate electrical power output at the same time 24/7/365 if needed.
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583. yonzabam 3:30 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:
We get greener and greener, at great cost, yet the ice melts more. Seems pretty unstoppable to me.


It is unstoppable. Even if man disappeared from the planet tomoorow, the world would continue to warm until it had reached its 'equilibrium' level.

Most of the warming from man made greenhouse gases does not come from the direct re-radiation of outgoing infrared radiation by those heat trapping gases. Most of the warming comes from positive feedback effects and these take time to kick in.

It's all about damage limitation for future generations. Handing over a world that's, say, 3 deg C warmer, rather than 5 deg C (or worse) if we do nothing is the aim.
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585. yonzabam 3:53 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting cat5hurricane:
583:

That's merely wild speculation on your part. The majority of scientists are still unclear whether or not C02 levels have risen and thus are the result of burning of fossil fuels. They are also very unclear whether or not the recent warming trend (which appears to be leveling off now) is the result of man-made activities.

You cannot believe everything you hear.

If what you are implying is currently going down, I'm under the impression sea level rises would already have begun taking place, which has not been happening.


Well, that's pure baloney. The majority of scientists know that atmospheric CO2 levels have risen from a pre-industrial level of 280 ppm to a current level of 393 ppm.

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586. cyclonebuster 3:54 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting yonzabam:


It is unstoppable. Even if man disappeared from the planet tomoorow, the world would continue to warm until it had reached its 'equilibrium' level.

Most of the warming from man made greenhouse gases does not come from the direct re-radiation of outgoing infrared radiation by those heat trapping gases. Most of the warming comes from positive feedback effects and these take time to kick in.

It's all about damage limitation for future generations. Handing over a world that's, say, 3 deg C warmer, rather than 5 deg C (or worse) if we do nothing is the aim.


Sorry! That all changes if you put my plan into action. In ten years we can have it back to pre-industrial revolution temperatures.
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587. Patrap 3:55 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
100 Bucks says a denial is soon to follow and a personal attack..if the future is a direct reflection of the past.

Wait for it...
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588. cyclonebuster 3:57 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting cat5hurricane:
583:

That's merely wild speculation on your part. The majority of scientists are still unclear whether or not C02 levels have risen and thus are the result of burning of fossil fuels. They are also very unclear whether or not the recent warming trend (which appears to be leveling off now) is the result of man-made activities.

You cannot believe everything you hear.

If what you are implying is currently going down, I'm under the impression sea level rises would already have begun taking place, which has not been happening.


If that that's the case then the majority of the scientists are still sitting in the pot of warming water.

img src="">
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589. cyclonebuster 4:01 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
It is very important to rescue the frog! In doing so, we will rescue our self.

img src="">
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590. yonzabam 4:03 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting cat5hurricane:
583:

That's merely wild speculation on your part. The majority of scientists are still unclear whether or not C02 levels have risen and thus are the result of burning of fossil fuels. They are also very unclear whether or not the recent warming trend (which appears to be leveling off now) is the result of man-made activities.

You cannot believe everything you hear.

If what you are implying is currently going down, I'm under the impression sea level rises would already have begun taking place, which has not been happening.


Levelling off? 2010 tied 2005 for the warmest year on record at 0.63 deg C above the 1951-80 average. Where in this graph do you see levelling off?


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591. Patrap 4:05 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Facts and numbers,,now there's a nice pleasent change of pace.

Where are these er, "Thousands of scientists that show a cooling or lack of AGW induced warming"?

Is there a list, a site for them JB?

..or to whomever claims this?

Show us.

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592. Neapolitan 4:07 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting cat5hurricane:
That's merely wild speculation on your part. The majority of scientists are still unclear whether or not C02 levels have risen and thus are the result of burning of fossil fuels. They are also very unclear whether or not the recent warming trend (which appears to be leveling off now) is the result of man-made activities.

Not at all true. In fact, virtually all scientists agree that CO2 concentrations are rising, and the majority of them know that our unimpeded burning of fossil fuels is the reason. And a majority of scientists--an overwhelming majority of climate scientists--know that the current warming is a direct result of that.
Quoting cat5hurricane:
If what you are implying is currently going down, I'm under the impression sea level rises would already have begun taking place, which has not been happening.

Yes, they have, as has been demonstrated here and elsewhere repeatedly. Some may be under the impression that if they simply close their eyes and repeat a wish often enough, it may come true ala Dorothy and her ruby slippers. But, alas, such are not the ways of science.
Quoting cat5hurricane:
You cannot believe everything you hear.

This is profoundly true--espcially if you hear it on Fox. ;-)
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593. nymore 4:57 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Neapolitan- You hit on the wildfire problem at the end of your post. The problem is and has been management. Fire is designed to refurbish the forest by taking out the dead and diseased wood. Wind is natures way of thinning the herd, fire is natures way of burying the dead. If fire is allowed to burn naturally it mainly burns at lower levels not getting into the tree tops or as it is called around here crowning. when we suppress these fires all we do is add fuel for the next fire. Yellowstone is a classic example of this, the scientists said it would be devastated for decades but this is not what happened the forest is making a stunning comeback amazing these scientists. The forest relies on fire to keep it self healthy. healthy trees do not burn very easily but downed trees and dead snags ( standing dead trees ) and diseased trees do. This effect can also be seen in prairie grasses if they are not burned they become a mat of dense dead grass inhibiting future growth but when burned off new lush growth takes over. A drought will cause downed timber, dead snags and brush to dry out but not the healthy older trees, by burning these materials at regular intervals it causes less large devastating fires and more but less devastating fires. Also many tree species rely on fire to reproduce, you see a tree was born to burn it is its life cycle much like a salmon was born to spawn and die. Fire managers are finally figuring out that fire is needed and are letting more of them burn out naturally so whether is be fewer and hotter burning fires because we intervene or more and smaller fires because we don't it will always continue much as it has for millions of years. This is why I claim it is a horrible metric to measure (man made) climate change.
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594. nymore 5:03 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
I would like to throw this out there. I am a skeptic not a denier. I do believe it has warmed, I am skeptical that man is the major or 100% cause of said warming. I do believe we add our two cents but do not believe we foot the bill.
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595. cyclonebuster 6:11 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
I would like to throw this out there. I am a skeptic not a denier. I do believe it has warmed, I am skeptical that man is the major or 100% cause of said warming. I do believe we add our two cents but do not believe we foot the bill.


We foot the bill if we cause it to go over the top even if our part is just two percent of the warming.
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596. yonzabam 6:29 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
I would like to throw this out there. I am a skeptic not a denier. I do believe it has warmed, I am skeptical that man is the major or 100% cause of said warming. I do believe we add our two cents but do not believe we foot the bill.



Greenhouse gases make the Earth warmer at the surface by an incredible 33 deg C. Without them, Earth would be virtually a snowball in space, with perhaps a narrow tundra region near the equator where life might have a fragile toehold.

Most of that 33 deg C is due to water vapour, but since a molecule of water vapour only lasts for a few days in the atmosphere and its presence in the air is highly variable, it's not grouped with the others. Estimates vary, but two thirds of the warming might be due to water vapour, meaning CO2, methane, nitrous oxide, ozone and many trace gases contribute 11 deg C.

Estimates also vary for how much of this 11 deg C is caused by CO2, but 'slightly more than half' is usual. That means it contributes around 6 deg C directly, but that warming is responsible for some of the water vapour, so the actual figure for direct and indirect warming will be significantly more than 6 deg C.

Man has increased the amount of CO2 in the air from 280 ppm to 393 ppm, or by 40%. Methane has increased from 0.7 ppm to 1.7 ppm, or by 143%. Water vapour has increased by 4%. How can this not cause warming?
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597. nymore 7:10 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
The Earth will continue to warm for the next several thousand years if the natural cycle behaves as it has in the past. Let us assume that co2 stays exactly the same what is the mechanism that causes this. We are currently in a cold period in this natural cycle. When people try to compare a cycle of several thousand years and say the average warming was an x amount average over said thousands of years then try to compare it to say the last 30 or 40 years is dishonest, we do not have the resolution of this small number of years in any ice cores or whatever metric you use. When averaged out over the very long term say 10,000 years it becomes hidden in the statistical uncertainty of any calculation. The only agency that says there has been warming beyond statistical uncertainty the last decade is GISS all other say no statistical warming. They are looking for answers as to why some scientists say Chinese aerosols while other scientist say no it may be volcanoes where the aerosols from the Icelandic volcano were up to by an order of 8 magnitudes higher than what we thought volcanoes produce. The CERN data should help shed some light on the relationship between cosmic rays and clouds and what changes this may cause, also scientists have found rising warm pools of water deep in the equatorial region across the Atlantic Ocean that they have shown cause climate changes as of now unexplained what causes these, we know more about the surface of the moon than our own oceans, till we have more facts in evidence the jury is still out.
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598. yonzabam 7:28 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
The Earth will continue to warm for the next several thousand years if the natural cycle behaves as it has in the past. Let us assume that co2 stays exactly the same what is the mechanism that causes this. We are currently in a cold period in this natural cycle. When people try to compare a cycle of several thousand years and say the average warming was an x amount average over said thousands of years then try to compare it to say the last 30 or 40 years is dishonest, we do not have the resolution of this small number of years in any ice cores or whatever metric you use. When averaged out over the very long term say 10,000 years it becomes hidden in the statistical uncertainty of any calculation. The only agency that says there has been warming beyond statistical uncertainty the last decade is GISS all other say no statistical warming. They are looking for answers as to why some scientists say Chinese aerosols while other scientist say no it may be volcanoes where the aerosols from the Icelandic volcano were up to by an order 8 magnitudes higher than what we thought volcanoes produce. The CERN data should help shed some light on the relationship between cosmic rays and clouds and what changes this may cause, till we have more facts in evidence the jury is still out.



Really? 8 orders of magnitude? So the Icelandic eruption put 100 million times more sulfur dioxide into the air than scientists believed was possible? That's incredible!

(shooting fish in a barrel, here)
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599. nymore 7:42 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Article link Link suck on that
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600. yonzabam 8:01 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Article link Link suck on that


Hmmm. It really does say that. From the article:

In addition we demonstrate that the binary H2SO4 - H2O nucleation scheme, as it is usually considered in modeling studies, underestimates by 7 to 8 orders of magnitude the observed particle formation rate and, therefore, should not be applied in tropospheric conditions.

As I don't know what a 'nucleation scheme' is, I'm not in a position to comment.
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601. nymore 8:04 PM GMT on July 23, 2011    
To bad you already commented and were proven wrong. Maybe shooting fish in a barrel is not so easy for you
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About RickyRood
I'm a professor at U Michigan and lead a course on climate change problem solving. These articles include ideas from the course. And no tuition!

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