Dr. Ricky Rood's Climate Change Blog

Heat Waves (4) A Climate Case Study:
Posted by: Dr. Ricky Rood, 6:26 AM GMT on July 19, 2011 +9
Heat Waves (4) A Climate Case Study:

In the last article I wrote that the extreme events of 2011 were providing us with the opportunity to think about climate and how to cope with a warming world. The U.S. is experiencing an extreme heat event this week (Masters @ WU). This heat wave is the consequence of a strong, stationary high pressure system over the central U.S., and it will move to the east over the next few days. Back on July 14th The Capital Weather Gang did a nice write up on the forecast of the heat wave. At the end of this blog are links to my previous blogs on heat waves and human health.

When thinking about weather, climate, and extreme events an important idea is “persistence.” For example, a heat wave occurs when there are persistent high temperatures. Persistent weather patterns occur when high and low pressure systems get large and stuck; that is, they don’t move. In the Figure below, you need to imagine North America and the United States. There is a high pressure center over the proverbial Heartland. With blue arrows I have drawn the flow of air around the high pressure system, and in this case moist air. There is moisture coming from the Gulf of Mexico and, in fact on the date when this was drawn, from the Pacific. This is common in the summer to see both the Gulf of Mexico and Pacific as sources of continental moisture.



Figure 1: Schematic of a high pressure system over the central United States in July. While generic, this is drawn to represent some of the specifics of 2011. The green-shaded area is where there have been floods in 2011. The brown-shaded area represents sustained drought in the southern part of the nation.

At the center of this high pressure system there is a suppression of rain, because the air is moving downward. This sets up a situation where the surface heats from the Sun’s energy. There is not much mixing and cooling, because of the suppression of the upward motion that produces rain. Hence, if this high pressure system gets stuck, then there is persistent heat. This is a classic summer heat wave.

Let’s think about it some more. There is lot of moisture being drawn around the edge of the high pressure system, and this moisture contributes to the discomfort of people. People – just a short aside about people: if we think about heat and health, then we are concerned about people’s ability to cool themselves. It is more difficult to cool people when it is humid because sweat does not evaporate. Suppose that in addition to this moisture, there is a region where the ground is soaked with water from flooding. Then on top of already moist air coming from the Gulf, there is local evaporation into the air being warmed by the Sun. If on the interior of the high, where the rain is suppressed, there is hot, wet air, then it becomes dangerous heat.

It’s not easy to derive a number that describes dangerous heat. But in much of the eastern U.S. a number that somehow combines temperature and humidity is useful. Meteorologists often use the heat index. It’s the summer time version of “it’s 98 degrees, but it feels like 105.” For moist climates, the heat index is one version of the “it feels like” temperature. Jeff Masters tells me that in Newton, Iowa yesterday, July 17, 2011, the heat index was 126 degrees F. (see here, and 131 F in Knoxville, Iowa on July 18)

Another measure of heat and humidity is the dew point; that is, the temperature at which dew forms, and effectively limits the nighttime low. The dew points in Iowa, South Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin are currently very high and setting records. Here is a map of dew point for July 19, 2011.



Figure 2: Exceptionally high dew points centered on Iowa.


Now if I was a public health official, and I was trying to understand how a warming planet might impact my life, then here is how I would think about it. First, the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific are going to be warmer, and hence, there will be more humid air. This will mean, with regard to human health for the central U.S., heat waves will become more dangerous, without necessarily becoming hotter. It is also reasonable to expect heat waves will become more frequent and last longer, because those persistent, stuck high pressure systems are, in part, forced by the higher sea surface temperatures. If I am a public health official here is my algorithm – heat waves are already important to my life, and they are likely to get more dangerous, more frequent, and of longer duration. But by how much? Do I need to know by how much before I decide on a plan for action?

If I think about the air being more humid, then I might expect to see trends in the heat index. I might expect to see trends in dew points, and trends in the nighttime minimum temperatures getting higher. (That’s where a greenhouse effect really matters.) I worry about persistent heat, warm nights, and the inability of people and buildings to cool themselves. I worry about their being dangerous heat in places where people and emergency rooms are not used to dangerous heat – not acclimated to heat – not looking for heat-related illness.

Let’s go back to the figure. Rain is suppressed in the middle of the high pressure system, but around the edge of the high pressure system it will rain; there will be storms. (see Figure 3 at the end) The air around the edge of high is warm and very wet. Wet air is energetic air, and it is reasonable to expect local severe storms. (See Severe Storm on Lake Michigan) And if the high pressure is persistent, stuck, then days of extreme weather are possible. If this pattern sets up, then there is increased likelihood of flooding. If I am that public health official, then I am alerted to the possibility of more extreme weather and the dangers thereof. But, again, can the increase of extreme weather be quantified? Do I need to quantify it before I decide on a plan of action?

Still with the figure - what about that region of extended drought and the heat from the high pressure system? Dehydration becomes a more important issue. As a public health official, I start to see the relation of the heat event to other aspects of the weather, the climate. I see the relation to drought. I see the flood, and it’s relation to the winter snow pack and spring rains.

So what I have presented here is to look at the local mechanisms of the weather – what are the basic underlying physics responsible for hot and cold, wet and dry – for moist air? If I stick to these basic physics, and let the climate model frame the more complex regional and global picture, what can I say about the future? Do I have to have a formal prediction to take action? Here in 2011, I see drought and flood and hot weather and warm oceans that interact together to make a period of sustained, dangerous heat. It does not have to “set a record” to convey the reality of the warming earth. It tells me the type of event that is likely to come more often, of longer duration, and of, perhaps, of greater intensity. If I am a public health planner, then I can know this with some certainty. The question becomes, how do I use that information in my planning?

r



Figure 3: Radar loop showing precipitation around the edge of the large high pressure system in the middle of the continent. July 19, 2011.

Previous Blogs on Heat Waves

Hot in Denver: Heat Waves (1)

Heat Waves (2): Heat and Humans

Heat Waves (3): Role of Global Warming




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1051. PurpleDrank 3:58 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Dr. Spencer sure got you guys motivated today, I see.

haha
Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
1052. PurpleDrank 4:13 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:
Worth posting:

Climate Change Debunked? Not So Fast

New research suggesting that cloud cover, not carbon dioxide, causes global warming is getting buzz in climate skeptic circles. But mainstream climate scientists dismissed the research as unrealistic and politically motivated.

"It is not newsworthy," Daniel Murphy, a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) cloud researcher, wrote in an email to LiveScience.

The study, published July 26 in the open-access online journal Remote Sensing, got public attention when a writer for The Heartland Institute, a libertarian think-tank that promotes climate change skepticism, wrote for Forbes magazine that the study disproved the global warming worries of climate change "alarmists." However, mainstream climate scientists say that the argument advanced in the paper is neither new nor correct. The paper's author, University of Alabama, Huntsville researcher Roy Spencer, is a climate change skeptic and controversial figure within the climate research community.

"He's taken an incorrect model, he's tweaked it to match observations, but the conclusions you get from that are not correct," Andrew Dessler, a professor of atmospheric sciences at Texas A&M University, said of Spencer's new study.


Spencer's research hinges on the role of clouds in climate change. Mainstream climate researchers agree that climate change happens when carbon dioxide traps heat from the sun in the atmosphere, much in the same way that a windshield traps solar heat in a car on a sunny afternoon. As the planet warms, a side effect is more water vapor in the atmosphere. This water vapor, known to most of us as clouds, traps more heat, creating a viscous loop.

Spencer sees it differently. He thinks that the whole cycle starts with the clouds. In other words, random increases in cloud cover cause climate warming. The cloud changes are caused by "chaos in the climate system," Spencer told LiveScience.

In the new paper, Spencer looked at satellite data from 2000 to 2010 to compare cloud cover and surface temperatures. Using a simple model, he linked the two, finding, he said, that clouds drive warming. His comparisons of his data with six Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) models showed, he said, that the models are too sensitive (meaning some variables, such as warming, increase at the slightest change in other factors) and that carbon dioxide is not likely to cause much warming at all.

However, no climate scientist contacted by LiveScience agreed.

The study finds a mismatch between the month-to-month variations in temperature and cloud cover in models versus the real world over the past 10 years, said Gavin Schmidt, a NASA Goddard climatologist. "What this mismatch is due to %u2014 data processing, errors in the data or real problems in the models %u2014 is completely unclear."

Other researchers pointed to flaws in Spencer's paper, including an "unrealistic" model placing clouds as the driver of warming and a lack of information about the statistical significance of the observed temperature changes. Statistical significance is the likelihood of results being real, as opposed to chance fluctuations unrelated to the other variables in the experiment.

"I cannot believe it got published," said Kevin Trenberth, a senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research.

Several researchers expressed frustration that the study was attracting media attention.

"If you want to do a story then write one pointing to the ridiculousness of people jumping onto every random press release as if well-established science gets dismissed on a dime," Schmidt said. "Climate sensitivity is not constrained by the last two decades of imperfect satellite data, but rather the paleoclimate record."


Spencer agreed that his work could not disprove the existence of manmade global warming. But he dismissed research on the ancient climate, calling it a "gray science."

The science of Spencer's work proved inextricable from the political debate surrounding global warming. The paper was mostly unnoticed in the public sphere until the Forbes blogger declared it "extremely important."

Dessler, the A&M climatologist said that he doubted the research would shift the political debate around global warming.

Live Science Article...

And with that, it's back to the drawing board for the denialists, I suppose. Better luck next time, guys! Though frankly I don't need a teardown of the Spencer paper; anyone who can with a straight face work for Big Energy, support "Intelligent Design" over evolution, say that ideological motives are his primary concern, and still claim authority is someone who definitely does not deserve to wear the title "credible". Or "scientist", for that matter.

Silly denialists.


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Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
1053. Neapolitan 4:17 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
I can find nothing that says Spencer receives money from the fossil fuel industry. Also saying he is not credible because of a religious view is stooping to a level that is low even for you Neo.

I never mentioned religion, did I? I merely spoke of his lack of scientific credibility. Now, if a scientist comes out and insists that the earth is flat or that the sun is the center of the universe or that babies are brought by storks, he has no credibility, at least to most. If you feel otherwise, however, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1054. PurpleDrank 4:19 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
1053

haha..storks
Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
1055. Neapolitan 4:20 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:
Dr. Spencer sure got you guys motivated today, I see.

haha

Yeah--sorta like his article got the denialosphere going yesterday, huh?
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1056. PurpleDrank 4:25 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

Yeah--sorta like his article got the denialosphere going yesterday, huh?


this blog has done wonders for the word denial.

my goodness
Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
1057. nymore 5:28 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Intelligent design is a religious view and you know it. I mean since the opinion you stated is yours I will take it with a grain of salt since you have no credibility left anyway I have taken you to task enough already that anyone who reads this blog should realize you are not a credible source of information with your made up facts and no sources. BTW I do not believe in intelligent design but if he does so what. I know you believe in socialism or communism but I don't take that into account when reading your posts
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
1058. nymore 5:46 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Kevin Trenberth isn't he the one who said it should be warming more because the model said so but data showed it was not, so the data must be wrong because his model had to be right. Also the guy who wrote about ACE for hurricanes in 2005 proving man made climate change because the trend was on its way up, but left it out in 2007 when the trend was falling. oh yea he is credible don't stand by statements you made, first see which way the wind is blowing and use that to make an argument for your position. BBL
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
1059. JBastardi 5:55 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:
Worth posting:

Climate Change Debunked? Not So Fast

New research suggesting that cloud cover, not carbon dioxide, causes global warming is getting buzz in climate skeptic circles. But mainstream climate scientists dismissed the research as unrealistic and politically motivated.

"It is not newsworthy," Daniel Murphy, a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) cloud researcher, wrote in an email to LiveScience.

The study, published July 26 in the open-access online journal Remote Sensing, got public attention when a writer for The Heartland Institute, a libertarian think-tank that promotes climate change skepticism, wrote for Forbes magazine that the study disproved the global warming worries of climate change "alarmists." However, mainstream climate scientists say that the argument advanced in the paper is neither new nor correct. The paper's author, University of Alabama, Huntsville researcher Roy Spencer, is a climate change skeptic and controversial figure within the climate research community.

"He's taken an incorrect model, he's tweaked it to match observations, but the conclusions you get from that are not correct," Andrew Dessler, a professor of atmospheric sciences at Texas A&M University, said of Spencer's new study.


Spencer's research hinges on the role of clouds in climate change. Mainstream climate researchers agree that climate change happens when carbon dioxide traps heat from the sun in the atmosphere, much in the same way that a windshield traps solar heat in a car on a sunny afternoon. As the planet warms, a side effect is more water vapor in the atmosphere. This water vapor, known to most of us as clouds, traps more heat, creating a viscous loop.

Spencer sees it differently. He thinks that the whole cycle starts with the clouds. In other words, random increases in cloud cover cause climate warming. The cloud changes are caused by "chaos in the climate system," Spencer told LiveScience.

In the new paper, Spencer looked at satellite data from 2000 to 2010 to compare cloud cover and surface temperatures. Using a simple model, he linked the two, finding, he said, that clouds drive warming. His comparisons of his data with six Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) models showed, he said, that the models are too sensitive (meaning some variables, such as warming, increase at the slightest change in other factors) and that carbon dioxide is not likely to cause much warming at all.

However, no climate scientist contacted by LiveScience agreed.

The study finds a mismatch between the month-to-month variations in temperature and cloud cover in models versus the real world over the past 10 years, said Gavin Schmidt, a NASA Goddard climatologist. "What this mismatch is due to %u2014 data processing, errors in the data or real problems in the models %u2014 is completely unclear."

Other researchers pointed to flaws in Spencer's paper, including an "unrealistic" model placing clouds as the driver of warming and a lack of information about the statistical significance of the observed temperature changes. Statistical significance is the likelihood of results being real, as opposed to chance fluctuations unrelated to the other variables in the experiment.

"I cannot believe it got published," said Kevin Trenberth, a senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research.

Several researchers expressed frustration that the study was attracting media attention.

"If you want to do a story then write one pointing to the ridiculousness of people jumping onto every random press release as if well-established science gets dismissed on a dime," Schmidt said. "Climate sensitivity is not constrained by the last two decades of imperfect satellite data, but rather the paleoclimate record."


Spencer agreed that his work could not disprove the existence of manmade global warming. But he dismissed research on the ancient climate, calling it a "gray science."

The science of Spencer's work proved inextricable from the political debate surrounding global warming. The paper was mostly unnoticed in the public sphere until the Forbes blogger declared it "extremely important."

Dessler, the A&M climatologist said that he doubted the research would shift the political debate around global warming.

Live Science Article...

And with that, it's back to the drawing board for the denialists, I suppose. Better luck next time, guys! Though frankly I don't need a teardown of the Spencer paper; anyone who can with a straight face work for Big Energy, support "Intelligent Design" over evolution, say that ideological motives are his primary concern, and still claim authority is someone who definitely does not deserve to wear the title "credible". Or "scientist", for that matter.

Silly denialists.


No scientists contacted by them agreed? They conveniently left out how many scientists and whom they contacted. They quote two unabashed warmists. Kevin Trenberth of "where's the missing heat" fame, and Gavin Schmidt. Those are probably the only two they contacted. Just what do you expect them to say. These two guys have been wrong more than right in their climate science careers. Their models are horrendous, and they want us to care one bit what they say. At least Spencer's paper actually attempts to apply science to current conditions unlike Schmidt and Trenberth who don't have a clue but continue to push this AGW agenda as if they knew what was occurring in climate
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
1060. PurpleDrank 5:58 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
one, two, three...

Grant, Grant, Grant yourself, down the mainstream..

Throw real contradictory data overboard, and call it all a denialist dream.

EVERYBODY!!

Grant, Grant, Grant...
Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
1062. greentortuloni 7:47 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


The article was simply a transcript of how a so-called scientist invented the drowning of many polar bears due to global warming, when he only saw three dead bears that drowned due to a severe winter storm. Al Gore used this fraudulent science as the basis for part of his movie. If that isn't bias, I don't know what is. This "scientist" is now under investigation for that fraud. Did you even read the transcript? As for bias, anything released by the government is biased. A culture of corruption exists among gov't-employed climate scientists. If they don't spout the gov't propaganda, they don't eat. The more the info they release is scrutinized, the more it is seen that they manipulate the numbers. Even NASA scientists themselves are starting to doubt the veracity of their info. If you have read the previous links on this blog posted by me and others, you can see how this charade is slowing falling apart.

As far as my articles being ignored, they are only ignored by people with a preconceived notion that AGW is real. No one with an open mind ignores them. As far as attacking you, it would do no good. That's the modus operandi of warmists. Snide comments because they can hide behind that computer monitor.

Edit: Belief in AGW usually goes hand in hand with liberal ideology. Several psychologists and psychiatrists have recently written books explaining the mental disorder of liberalism.


Actually if you have links to those books, I'd be interested in reading them.

I have read a few articles (stumbled across them, not searching for them) that show how people's self perception dominates their beliefs in a majority of cases. Liberals, being liberal, are less likely in intellectual subjects to be dominated by beliefs not relevant to the subject in question. That doesn't make liberals 'better' or 'smarter', just more open to analysing facts based on facts alone, everything else being equal. Everything isn't always equal of course.

By the way, what part of the science do you disagree with? Ok, the conclusions obviously, but what part of hte theory is false?
Member Since: June 5, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1188
1064. theshepherd 7:55 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
City cores shown to be cooling down due to large air conditioners cooling buildings from inside out causing the wet bulb temperature to drop within 10 feet of large structures


Actually it's just the opposite.
Via the process of capturing latent heat loss (air conditioning)to cool the interior of a building you first create heat through the compression phase. This heat generation takes place outside the building. In addition the unit itself creates a substantial amount of heat within the fans and compressors. Couple that with the heat reflected back by the buildings exteriors you are worse off than if there was no building there at all.
You can test this by moving your AC unit totally inside your house and I think you'll find you're worse off than with it outside as designed....or you can take my word for it.

Furthermore, stand next to a building downtown and then go stand in the park.

just saying...
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8197
1065. Neapolitan 7:57 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Intelligent design is a religious view and you know it. I mean since the opinion you stated is yours I will take it with a grain of salt since you have no credibility left anyway I have taken you to task enough already that anyone who reads this blog should realize you are not a credible source of information with your made up facts and no sources. BTW I do not believe in intelligent design but if he does so what. I know you believe in socialism or communism but I don't take that into account when reading your posts

Socialism and communism are real economic/sociopolitical systems. "Intelligent Design", on the other hand, is a superstitious hypothesis not remotely grounded in science or reality. As such, someone claiming scientific knowledge can be a socialist or a communist and still retain all their scientific credibility. Meanwhile, someone claiming a belief in the supernatural immediately loses their scientific credibility, at least in the eyes of many.

I'll ignore the rest of your baseless rant. As always. ;-)
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1066. theshepherd 8:08 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
1062. greentortuloni
Liberals, being liberal, are less likely in intellectual subjects to be dominated by beliefs not relevant to the subject in question.

************************************************* ********************

And that indeed wins the Sophistry of the month quote.

And achieves a close second for the mental onanism of the month.

Also ran...
Look up the word "bigot".
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8197
1067. greentortuloni 8:08 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting theshepherd:
1062. greentortuloni
Liberals, being liberal, are less likely in intellectual subjects to be dominated by beliefs not relevant to the subject in question.

************************************************* ********************

And that indeed wins the Sophistry of the month quote.

And achieves a close second for the mental onanism of the month.

Also ran...
Look up the word "bigot".


No, it is factual. Look up the post it was in response to. Any comments there? Why not?
Member Since: June 5, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1188
1068. theshepherd 8:13 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
1065. Neapolitan
Meanwhile, someone claiming a belief in the supernatural immediately loses their scientific credibility, at least in the eyes of many.




Uh???
Like Albert Einstein???

You just won first place in the Mental Onanism category plus the Sophistry of the Year Award.

Sorry greentortuloni...it is what it is :(

You also should look up the word "bigot".
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8197
1069. greentortuloni 8:20 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting theshepherd:
1065. Neapolitan
Meanwhile, someone claiming a belief in the supernatural immediately loses their scientific credibility, at least in the eyes of many.




Uh???
Like Albert Einstein???

You just won first place in the Mental Onanism category plus the Sophistry of the Year Award.

Sorry greentortuloni...it is what it is :(

You also should look up the word "bigot".


Yes, but you won't answer the question: why is it 'bigotry' when I do it but not when someone who denies global warming does it?

The point sort of proves itself about bias, no?
Member Since: June 5, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1188
1070. theshepherd 8:23 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting greentortuloni:


No, it is factual. Look up the post it was in response to. Any comments there? Why not?



Yeah, I gotta comment.

"It was posted by your hand."

If it needs any qualification that doesn't make you look like a bigot, then you need to be the one backtracking.

Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8197
1071. nymore 8:25 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Sheperd I know city cores are not cooling I was just making up facts as some on here like to do
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
1072. Neapolitan 8:26 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting theshepherd:
1065. Neapolitan
Meanwhile, someone claiming a belief in the supernatural immediately loses their scientific credibility, at least in the eyes of many.




Uh???
Like Albert Einstein???

You just won first place in the Mental Onanism category plus the Sophistry of the Year Award.

Sorry greentortuloni...it is what it is :(

You also should look up the word "bigot".

So Albert Einstein believed in "Intelligent Design"? Of course not. In fact, he didn't even believe in the supernatural. I'll let him speak for himself:

"Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic orgy of freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression. Mistrust of every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude toward the convictions that were alive in any specific social environment - an attitude that has never again left me, even though, later on, it has been tempered by a better insight into the causal connections"

Now please tell me how that comment equates to Spencer's mad ramblings about Adam and Eve appearing in fig leafs or Noah's Ark floating atop a global flood 4,500 years ago. Seriously. Please enlighten us.

Or better yet, don't bother. Spencer has credibility in the climate sciences like Rupert Murdoch has it in journalistic ethics; that much is evident to most everybody.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1073. greentortuloni 8:27 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting theshepherd:



Yeah, I gotta comment.

"It was posted by your hand."

If it needs any qualification that doesn't make you look like a bigot, then you need to be the one backtracking.



Your question was about me being a bigot. I didn't confirm or deny it.

I merely noted your hypocritical-ness and ntoed that this made you a bigot too, as well as providing one point of data for 'bigoted' assumption.

But you refuse to answer why if I do it it is bigotry but if a denier does it, it is not. Answer or be known forever on these boards as a scientologist!
Member Since: June 5, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1188
1074. theshepherd 8:31 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting greentortuloni:


Yes, but you won't answer the question: why is it 'bigotry' when I do it but not when someone who denies global warming does it?

The point sort of proves itself about bias, no?


And with that, you can take a seat...or better yet, get off the bus.

So, let me understand you:

If someone doesn't believe in global warming, then that's the same as saying only Liberals can think rationaly? And if they aren't convinced then they also are a bigot?

Yup...that's what you just said and you just lost all credibility as even a backseat thinker.

Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8197
1075. nymore 8:41 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
You missed the point again just because you believe in something that is crazy in most peoples eyes should not take away from their credibility on another subject. Example Spencer intelligent Design and you Socialism or Communism both of these most people find completely out there but have nothing to do with the GW debate. Spencer at least can source the facts that he gives unlike some on this blog. Also if you believe Socialism is so great I will be more than happy to pay your moving expenses so you can experience it first hand
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
1076. theshepherd 8:42 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

So Albert Einstein believed in "Intelligent Design"? Of course not. In fact, he didn't even believe in the supernatural. I'll let him speak for himself:

"Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic orgy of freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression. Mistrust of every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude toward the convictions that were alive in any specific social environment - an attitude that has never again left me, even though, later on, it has been tempered by a better insight into the causal connections"

Now please tell me how that comment equates to Spencer's mad ramblings about Adam and Eve appearing in fig leafs or Noah's Ark floating atop a global flood 4,500 years ago. Seriously. Please enlighten us.

Or better yet, don't bother. Spencer has credibility in the climate sciences like Rupert Murdoch has it in journalistic ethics; that much is evident to most everybody.


When and where did Einstein denounce his belief in God or the creation of the Universe???

Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8197
1077. greentortuloni 8:43 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting theshepherd:


And with that, you can take a seat...or better yet, get off the bus.

So, let me understand you:

If someone doesn't believe in global warming, then that's the same as saying only Liberals can think rationaly? And if they aren't convinced then they also are a bigot?

Yup...that's what you just said and you just lost all credibility as even a backseat thinker.



No, what I said was:

That when a denier says 'all people of class A are X'

and then

I say 'all people of class not A are X'

that either we are both bigots or neither of us are. However, you don't criticise the first statement, therefore you are hypocritical.

But, further, it was an interesting case of self reference, since the class in question is those who are mentally biased. Because it is self referential, it gives me an evidential loophole, where you proved that I can be both right and not a bigot by your actions.

You were utterly brilliant.

I still think Tom Cruise is not a good actor.
Member Since: June 5, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1188
1078. theshepherd 8:50 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
1077. greentortuloni


"POOF"
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8197
1079. theshepherd 8:57 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
1072. Neapolitan


"POOF" you too.

Here you are representing that because Albert Einstein did not believe everything that's in the Bible then you can infer that he was not religous.

Get off the bus.
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8197
1080. greentortuloni 8:59 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting theshepherd:
1077. greentortuloni


"POOF"


Foop!
Member Since: June 5, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1188
1081. cyclonebuster 9:29 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Climate Change 'Remobilizes' Long-Buried Pollutants as Arctic Ice Melts

Warming in the Arctic is causing the release of toxic chemicals long trapped in the region's snow, ice, ocean and soil, according to a new study. Researchers from Canada, China and Norway say their work provides the first evidence that some persistent organic pollutants (POPs) are being "remobilized" into the Arctic atmosphere.

"Our results indicate that a wide range of POPs have been remobilized into the Arctic atmosphere over the past two decades as a result of climate change, confirming that Arctic warming could undermine global efforts to reduce environmental and human exposure to these toxic chemicals," write the scientists, whose analysis was published yesterday in the journal Nature Climate Change.

That's of concern because POPs can travel long distances on air currents, persist in food and water supplies, and accumulate in the body fat of humans and other animals. The pollutants also can be passed from mother to fetus and have been linked to serious health problems in humans and other animals.

Co-author Hayley Hung, a scientist with Environment Canada's Air Quality Division who studies toxic organic pollutants in the Arctic, said that in recent years, researchers had posited that warmer conditions would liberate POPs stored in land, ice and ocean reservoirs back into the atmosphere.

"The chemicals are known to be semi-volatile," Hung said. "They have the ability to evaporate out of storage" -- if temperatures are warm enough.

She and her colleagues began to suspect the phenomenon was already under way when they examined 20 years of air monitoring data collected at a high Arctic monitoring site, Zeppelin Mountain Air Monitoring Station in Norway's Svalbard archipelago.

Toxic blasts from the past

Beginning in the mid-2000s, scientists observed higher levels of certain POPs, including hexachlorobenzene and polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), at the Norwegian research station. That stood out, Hung said, because the chemicals' use has been restricted to the point where many POPs are no longer produced. As a result, the level of POPs in Arctic air had been decreasing.

"Stockpiles still exist, but these are limited sources," she said, "and the sources are already known to us. So we were surprised to see concentrations actually coming up at the Svalbard station."

The scientists then examined two decades of monitoring data from the Alert monitoring station in the Canadian province of Nunavut. They saw smaller, though still significant, increases in POPs at the second site.

Hung believes the larger increase at the Svalbard site is caused by its proximity to ocean areas where sea ice has retreated. "This is a sign to us that these chemicals are indeed evaporating out of the ocean," she said.

Still, she noted that all POPs don't react the same way to warming. Hexachlorobenzene and PCBs, the chemicals detected in increasing amounts in Norway and Canada, evaporate more easily than many other POPs, and are harder to dissolve in water. That means they're more prone to re-enter the atmosphere after they're deposited on land or sea.

Jordi Dach, a scientist at the Barcelona, Spain-based Institute of Environmental Assessment and Water Research, said the new study provided convincing evidence of the long-suspected movement of POPs from Arctic reservoirs into the atmosphere.

The new study "demonstrates that climate change can remobilize POPs stored in water, snow, ice and presumably soils -- and that this process is already occurring in the Arctic region," he wrote in an essay accompanying the new study.

Eventually, Dachs said, atmospheric circulation patterns could carry the newly liberated POPs to other parts of the globe.

Oldies, but not goodies

"The remobilization of pollutants generated by our grandparents -- pollutants that were banned decades ago -- are unwanted witnesses to our environmental past that now seem to be 'coming in from the cold," he said.

Meanwhile, the new study suggests the effect will intensify in the future with continued climate change, based on computer models that attempt to project how rising temperatures would affect the Arctic's chemical reservoirs.

That echoes a report released in February by the U.N. Environment Programme and the Arctic Monitoring and Assessment Programme. "For some POPs, climate change-induced enhancement of emissions may reduce the expected effectiveness of the Stockholm Convention" -- the international treaty that bans use of several POPs -- "resulting in releases decreasing less rapidly than targeted."

That's a concern of Hung's, as well.

"The main purpose of this paper is to raise the awareness that climate change actually has an influence on contamination," she said. "It's not as apparent as other, more visible changes. ... People need to be aware there is an effect. As we evaluate the effectiveness of the Stockholm Convention, we need to take into account the effects of climate change."


Link











Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18758
1082. Neapolitan 9:58 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
You missed the point again just because you believe in something that is crazy in most peoples eyes should not take away from their credibility on another subject. Example Spencer intelligent Design and you Socialism or Communism both of these most people find completely out there but have nothing to do with the GW debate. Spencer at least can source the facts that he gives unlike some on this blog. Also if you believe Socialism is so great I will be more than happy to pay your moving expenses so you can experience it first hand

Didn't get the point I see. Here, one more time: a scientist can believe in socialism or communism without affecting his scientific credibility, as those are things that actually exist in the real world; like them or not, they are tangible entities. But a scientist cannot knowingly support something like ID that is not just unscientific, but anti-scientific. And I'd say the same about a "scientist" who professes belief in anything similar, like a flat earth, fairies, or flying pink unicorns.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1083. Neapolitan 10:01 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting theshepherd:
1072. Neapolitan


"POOF" you too.

Here you are representing that because Albert Einstein did not believe everything that's in the Bible then you can infer that he was not religous.

Get off the bus.

You stated that Einstein had a belief in the supernatural. I responded with a single quote that proved that he didn't. But poof away if that'll make you more comfortable.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1084. nymore 10:27 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
So I guess anyone who believes in such things as Dark Energy, Dark Matter or the Higgs-Boson particle completely loses all credibility as a scientist since none of these things have ever been seen or directly detected. I do not believe ones religious beliefs have anything to do with their job. If I did and did not hire that person or fire that person or except their work based on their belief I would be breaking the law. ( religious discrimination )FWIW I am agnostic
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
1085. Neapolitan 11:07 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
So I guess anyone who believes in such things as Dark Energy, Dark Matter or the Higgs-Boson particle completely loses all credibility as a scientist since none of these things have ever been seen or directly detected. I do not believe ones religious beliefs have anything to do with their job. If I did and did not hire that person or fire that person or except their work based on their belief I would be breaking the law. ( religious discrimination )FWIW I am agnostic

No. Those are theoretical entities whose existence is based on sound scientific principles. ID, on the other hand, is a refutal of known science. As such, any attempt to equate the two is intellectually dishonest.

Bottom line: if ID is solidly scientific, religion has no place in a discussion about it. And if, OTOH, ID is a religious concept, it has no place in a discussion about science.

I trust this patient explanation has aided your understanding.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1086. nymore 11:25 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Well then sir hire someone then do not accept except their conclusions about something in science because their belief in ID makes them not credible in any science and sir you will be sued and you will lose in court.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
1087. Patrap 11:55 PM GMT on July 29, 2011    
Tales From ICESCAPE: The Final Countdown
Posted on Jul 29, 2011 03:46:26 PM | ICESCAPE


July 28, 2011

Mustang suits are hung, boxes packed, and pagers turned in. Tomorrow we arrive in Seward, Alaska, and step foot on land again for the first time in 34 days. Here's a look at the ICESCAPE 2011 campaign by the numbers.

Days at sea: 34 (tomorrow, after docking in Seward, Alaska)

Days of science data collection: 26



Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 370 Comments: 111297
1088. JBastardi 12:19 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
More lying about sea level increases by the warmists stating that sea level increases are going to inundate beaches in Los Angeles:

Link

The truth is:

Link
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
1089. Some1Has2BtheRookie 12:42 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:
More lying about sea level increases by the warmists stating that sea level increases are going to inundate beaches in Los Angeles:

Link

The truth is:

Link


I am impressed, JBastardi. You actually used the NOAA website as the source for truth. I find that refreshing. Yes, I also agree that a journalist should not be trusted on this.
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
1090. Ossqss 12:50 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Oh well, I see a pattern on this blog/.... No rational, non-emotional, exchange of any relevance. Science is not opinion, or character assassination :(

.




Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
1091. Some1Has2BtheRookie 1:08 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Quoting Ossqss:
... Science is not opinion, or character assassination :(


1000

BTW, I am still following up on the peer reviews. Thank you, for the links.
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
1092. Neapolitan 1:12 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Quoting Ossqss:
Oh well, I see a pattern on this blog/.... No rational, non-emotional, exchange of any relevance. Science is not opinion, or character assassination :(

Nothing but a few vague insults followed by an embedded beer commercial? Gee, thanks for contributing so much to the evening's dialogue... ;-)
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1093. Neapolitan 1:19 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:
More lying about sea level increases by the warmists stating that sea level increases are going to inundate beaches in Los Angeles:

Link

The truth is:

Link

You were saying?

Bad moon rising...

Bad moon rising...

As SHTBTR said, kudos for using the NOAA site; that's where you'll find the unvarnished scientific data.

If the house catches fire, I'd much rather there be an alarmist around to call 911 than, say, someone who steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the flames.

Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11148
1094. Ossqss 1:24 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


1000

BTW, I am still following up on the peer reviews. Thank you, for the links.


You are very welcome. I don't participate here with any agenda, just my logic.

Ya just never know what you may find on any given day in today's world ~ Like this ~ :)

Seeing the wood for the trees: New study shows sheep in tree-ring records
Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
1095. Ossqss 1:25 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

Nothing but a few vague insults followed by an embedded beer commercial? Gee, thanks for contributing so much to the evening's dialogue... ;-)


You too ~ you were my inspiration..... LOL
Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
1096. nymore 1:29 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Call everyone you know in Los Angeles and tell them to get out because the ocean will rise by a little over 3 inches give or take an inch in the next 100 years. That is a torrid pace I am not sure we humans can deal with. Thanks Neo for the graphs you proved JB's point
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
1097. PSLFLCaneVet 1:48 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

You were saying?

Bad moon rising...

Bad moon rising...

As SHTBTR said, kudos for using the NOAA site; that's where you'll find the unvarnished scientific data.

If the house catches fire, I'd much rather there be an alarmist around to call 911 than, say, someone who steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the flames.



I lurk here mostly, but that is not really a worthy response, Nea.
Member Since: July 23, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 12406
1098. Ossqss 2:11 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
"If the house catches fire, I'd much rather there be an alarmist around to call 911 than, say, someone who steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the flames."

I musta missed that one ~

Gnight, make it a great weekend! Out>>

I think of Sol, no?

Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
1099. iceagecoming 3:13 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:
BREAKING NEWS (Reuters): Exxon reports Q2 EPS of $2.18, net income $10.68 billion

Net income (that is, take home) of $10,680,000,000.

For one quarter.

$117,362,637.36 net per day.

$4,890,109.89 per hour.

$81,501.83 per minute.

$1,358.36 per second.

For just one oil company.

If any of you are still puzzled as to just why Big Energy would stop at nothing to fight changing the current setup, please refer to the numbers above.


Amazing since BHO is in full court press to destroy
our economy!

Gallup Poll shocker: Obama job approval hits new low
July 29, 2011 | 11:18 am

As the economy sags, unemployment climbs and debt negotiators dawdle, President Obama's job approval rating has fallen to a new low.

A new Gallup Poll, just released, finds the Democrat's job approval rating has dropped to 40% in recent days, one point below his previous low from April and a full 10 points below the job approval he enjoyed as recently as June 7.

Gallup notes his job approval has hovered in the mid-40s for most of the last two months.

Link

From the LAtimes no less, as commie as they get.

"It's the economy, stupid"
The phrase, made popular by Clinton campaign strategist James Carville,
Member Since: January 27, 2009 Posts: 21 Comments: 852
1100. iceagecoming 3:40 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    






The coldest air made its way across the North Island early on Monday 25 July and a trough following on behind brought a further bout of heavy snow later that day. Heavy showers brought the snow level down as they passed: a centimetre or so of snow even fell in Greytown (about 100 metres above sea level) in the Wairarapa to the east of Wellington.
Location Maximum temperature on
Mon-25-Jul 2011 Lowest daily maximum temperature on record Month / year occurred in Record starts Monday’s max temperature is the lowest since …
Auckland 10.2 8.8 June 1976 1966 June 2002
New Plymouth 6.7 6.0 July 1951 1944 1944
Napier 7.4 3.6 September 1969 1940 May 1989
Paraparaumu 6.3 5.4 July 2004 1972 1972
Kelburn (Wellington) 5.6 4.5 August 1938 1931 July 1995
Christchurch 5.0 1.7 August 1992 1954 June 2007



Finally, this MODIS (Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer) satellite image shows the snow coverage over New Zealand late on the morning of Tuesday 26 July. Snow areas are coloured red.



Link

Record cold down under.
Member Since: January 27, 2009 Posts: 21 Comments: 852
1101. iceagecoming 3:52 AM GMT on July 30, 2011    



Chile: Severe winter

120,035 Swiss francs have been
allocated from the IFRC’s
Disaster Relief Emergency Fund
(DREF) to support the Chilean
Red Cross (CRCh) in delivering
immediate assistance to some
1,000 families. Un-earmarked
funds to repay DREF are
encouraged.
Summary:
A cold weather front has impacted
the Bio-bío and Araucanía regions,
bringing snowstorms and low
temperatures above yearly
averages.
Approximately 25,000 persons
have been affected, and
thousands of Mapuches and
Pehuenhue indigenous families
are completely isolated. Due to this isolation, additional snowstorms and delays in clearing secondary
roads, the CRCh in its auxiliary role to the Chilean government will be distributing emergency relief items
that include blankets, jerry cans and tools to 1,000 families.


The situation
On 13 July 2011, a cold front developed, bringing intense snowstorms to the mountainous region south of
Bio Bío and the Araucanía, particularly affecting communities in the area of the Curacautín and the Villarrica
National Park. By 19 July 2011, up to two metres of snow had fallen, blocking roads and mountain passes,
interrupting the electricity and communication services, disrupting the provision of food, medicines and fuel,
and provoking structural damages to some houses. In addition, with temperatures as low as –22 °C, water
pipes have frozen, interrupting the water supply in many areas.
The Chilean Red Cross (CRCh) based on information from the Emergency National Office (Oficina Nacional
de Emergencia – ONEMI), and other regional sources, estimates that approximately 25,000 persons have
been affected. As shown in the table below, many of the affected families are completely isolated.


Link


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About RickyRood
I'm a professor at U Michigan and lead a course on climate change problem solving. These articles include ideas from the course. And no tuition!

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