Dr. Ricky Rood's Climate Change Blog

"BEST" temperature record study surprises skeptics
Posted by: Angela Fritz, 3:38 PM GMT on November 03, 2011 +18
Last month, a team of scientists from Berkeley called the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature (BEST) group released results from research they did on the Earth surface temperature record. Though there have been numerous studies and time series created on surface temperature, they wanted to take an independent look at the data and create a new temperature record. What they found was surprising to some in the "skeptic" community, though not surprising to most climate scientists.

Dr. Richard Muller is the founder and scientific director of the BEST group, which is made up of physicists, statisticians, and climatologists. Though Dr. Muller has been described as a climate change "skeptic" and "denialist," he has an impressive and extensive curriculum vitae in physics, including being a consultant for the U.S. Department of Defense, and a MacArther Foundation Fellow, and the recipient of the National Science Foundation Alan T. Altman Award. His skepticism is evidenced most frequently in the press by his funding from the Koch brothers, who have made billions of dollars in the oil industry. The BEST project also accepted funding from Koch, among many other organizations, though the funders had no influence over methodology or results, which is almost always the case in peer reviewed science. The BEST group also includes Dr. Judith Curry, the chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at Georgia Tech, who has recently been vocal about the need for a more transparent scientific process, and more eyes on the data, especially when it comes to research on man-made global warming and the temperature record.

The BEST team was open with their hypothesis: they expected to find that, when using temperature stations that other organizations failed to include, the warming trend wouldn't be present, or at least not as dramatic. Their objectives are listed on their website (which also includes access to data and submitted papers), which include:

-- Merging land surface data into a raw dataset that's in a common format and easy to use
-- Developing new and potentially better ways of processing, average, and merging the data
-- Creating a new global temperature record
-- To provide not only the raw data and the resulting record, but also the code and tools used to get there, making the process as transparent as possible



Figure 1. Locations of the the 39,028 temperature stations in the Berkeley Earth data set (blue). Stations classified as rural are plotted on top in black.

The BEST project collaborators combined data from 15 sources that, wherever possible, did not include the tried and true data that the "big three" (NASA, NOAA, or HadCRU) used in their analyses, mainly the GHCN Monthly dataset, which is widely used because of its requirements that the each station in the data set have plenty of observations, no gaps, and no erroneous data. However, the BEST project was born to create a new global surface temperature record, and to "see what you get" if you use observations that other institutions have weeded out. BEST looked at data from 39,028 different temperature measurement stations from around the globe (Figure 1), and developed an averaging process to merge the stations into one record, which you see below in comparison to previous records that have been constructed.



Figure 2. Temperature time series from the big three: NASA Goddard Institute for Space Science (NASA GISS, blue), NOAA (green), and the Hadley Centre and Climate Research Unit of East Anglia (HadCRU, red) along with the results from the BEST project (black).

The result was a new land surface temperature series to be added to the well-cited records of NOAA, NASA, and HadCRU, in addition to some truly independent, amateur compilations. The new temperature record agrees with the records from "the big three," and agrees with them on a warming of 1°C since 1950. BEST also addressed concerns raised by the skeptic community about station bias and urban heat island effect. They conclude that the urban heat island effect does not contribute significantly to the land temperature rise, given that urban area is only 1% of the land area in the record. Also, they looked at the stations that Anthony Watts has reported as "poor" quality, and have found that they also showed the same warming as the stations that were reported as "OK." This helps to show that temperature stations were not "cherry picked" in previous studies for warming trends, but for honest station quality.

The addition of another (eventually) peer-reviewed temperature series is good, and more eyes looking at the data is good, but the result is not surprising. However, it might have changed the minds of some skeptics who have been wanting to see an analysis from scientists that they find trustworthy. I think Dr. Muller sums their results up nicely in his Wall Street Journal opinion article:

When we began our study, we felt that skeptics had raised legitimate issues, and we didn't know what we'd find. Our results turned out to be close to those published by prior groups. We think that means that those groups had truly been very careful in their work, despite their inability to convince some skeptics of that.


The BEST project has four papers out for review in various journals. Having released the results to the public eye before undergoing the scrutiny of peer review, they've also made some updates to the analysis since these papers were submitted, thanks to a peer review process of its own: the internet.

Links and references:

  • Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature

  • BEST FAQ

  • BEST Press Release


  • Angela
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    203. Neapolitan 2:30 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting gotlieb:


    To further clarify the argument about how breathing "counts" I need to refute the flawed logic of this (and a few other statements) regarding the closed nature of the carbon cycle. There are two sides to the carbon cycle of which we are all discussing only half. That is, the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere. We aren't discussing the amount of carbon in the ground that is sequestered from the air because it doesn't contribute to GW. The point is that at any given moment, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is a balancing act of emission (breathing, burning fuels, etc.) and absorption (photosynthesis). Since it's a cycle, if one part speeds up while the other slows down the overall CO2 in the atmosphere will increase dramatically.

    Let's use an Indoor Air Quality analogy. If you put two people in a small greenhouse with 10 plants and measure the CO2 levels during the day it will probably resemble our atmosphere. But put in 10 people and only two plants and the CO2 levels will skyrocket. This is why outside air has to be pumped into most office buildings to prevent CO2 (and other gases) from building up inside.

    Since our atmosphere is also a closed system (just much larger) the ratio between human population and square miles of permanent vegetation will have a direct impact on the amount of CO2. Over the last 100 years the deforestation of our planet is well documented. Depending on whose numbers you use, some 70% of these forests have been removed to make room for farms and human habitat. Old growth forests are more than just habitat for animals, they are also a huge CO2 absorbing-oxygen producing biomachine. As we removed the forests and put up our farms and subdivisions we changed the ratio of trees (or plants in general) to humans. As the population grows, this ratio shifts further into the red, meaning a higher emission rate and a lower absorption rate.

    I'm not making this point needlessly. The CO2 exhaled by 5B humans simply adds into the total CO2 that needs to be absorbed by an ever shrinking plant base. Crops grown for food do not have the same CO2 absorbing capabilities as an old growth forest.

    Here is the bottom line: Overpopulation drives deforestation, industrialization and increased power generation. The more people you have on the planet, the more room you need (deforestation), the more food you need (industrialized agriculture), and the more power you need (fossil fuel generation). Only a plan that addresses population first has any chance of making an impact.

    Given the world's reluctance to even discuss population control, I highly doubt MAN will do anything substantive to limit our total footprint on this planet. Mother Nature will most likely step in at some point and do it for us.

    I think you may have been unfairly disadvantaged by coming to the party late and responding to only that portion of the conversation that took place after you arrived. This entire portion of the discussion was prompted by a question posed by PurpleDrank where she asked how much CO2 we humans emit while breathing. The talk turned to hypotheticals: on an earth in which no fossil fuel carbon was ever released from long-term underground sequestration, the number of animals emitting CO2 would be balanced by the number of plants absorbing it, and vice-versa. And so long as those stayed in balance, there'd be no large net gain or loss of carbon to the system. Now obviously, as you stated, once fossil carbon from farming, transportation, cooking, and so on is added to the mix, that balance gets thrown wildly out of whack. And chopping down forests and replacing them with vegetable crops or grazing for cattle throws that balance off even more, as there's less ability to absorb what we animals emit. In short, then, rapid greenhouse warming is not happening because of the CO2 we animals constantly exhale; it's happening because of all the extra carbon we're adding to the system by digging it up, burning it, and freeing it into the atmosphere.

    And you're correct in stating that "Mother Nature will most likely step in at some point and do it for us". She's done so in the past, and she'll do so in the future; we humans are no more special than any of the other millions of species that have come and gone before. Malthusian disasters await. People are free to deny it all they wish, but they may as well deny death itself.
    Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
    204. Birthmark 2:51 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting JBastardi:
    We know that CO2 emissions have been increasing globally for the past ten years. If CO2 is the primary driver of temperature increase, then why have global temperatures leveled off or decreased? Perhaps there's another driver of temperature:

    Link

    There are many other drivers of climate. It is just that CO2 is the most important of these on Earth.

    Now, *weather*...well, that's all kinds of complicated. And weather is what your link actually is discussing. The climate change signal is extremely unlikely to be statistically significant at such short time scales. It's almost as though that link is trying to mislead or confuse people. ;)
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    205. Birthmark 2:55 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting nymore:
    Do you have any evidence of this warming in the last decade? No

    Do you have any evidence that the temp is the usa is not decreasing? No. Texas and Oklahoma and one year are not the whole USA

    How could open water freeze faster than ice that is already there? That comment is laughable. Ever driven a truck on ice? Ever seen how ice forms and where and why or why not?

    You use percentages which are easy to misrepresent. I use actual facts about population, property and infrastructure. Example you have 20 dollars and make 400% increase, I have 60 dollars and make 35% increase. Question who has more money over the same given time? ME even though you made 400% and I made only 35% hmmm?

    I said there may be fishing boats out there but there are no oil facilities. Do Have proof of these oil facilities and pipelines? No. Unless your oil facility is a diesel tank. LOL

    I don't claim to be an expert on the Bering Sea, but I guarantee I know more about winter weather than some goof in Florida. True. I also still believe Levi32 as he is smarter about weather than you and I put together.

    I never said it was warm I just said it is extremely cold (well below normal) for this time of year in Nunavut. You said the sun does not shine in the arctic I proved it does still shine. True. BTW the sun set in Alert Nunavut October 16th which is at 82.5 degrees north but it is never gone from the arctic even on December 21 it is up for over 2 hours on the Arctic Circle. We have been making ice since what September 10th?

    Maybe the case actually has no merit. Do you know this judge is an oil shill as you like to say? No

    The co2 thing I never said anything about that but since you bring it up all the climate models have been wrong for the last decade. It is not just co2 that has driven the warming.

    Global temp not rising for over a decade, ocean surface temp not rising. Do have evidence that these temps have risen? No

    I can see why your frustrated though as no one in the general public really cares about AGWT anymore.

    As always thanks for playing

    A decade is not long enough to separate the warming trend from the statistical noise of weather.

    Thanks for playing.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    207. overwash12 2:58 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting greentortuloni:


    Link

    Link

    Link

    Took about thirty seconds to google and cut and paste links. I haven't read the pages for more than about 5 seconds each so they could be bunk for all I know. The point is that you didn't even bother to try to find out, you just assumed your opinion on this issue affected billions of people was correct. I reall y wish denialists would try to approach an issue neutrally, weigh the evidence and then form an opinion. Doing those things out of order leads to comments like yours.
    Comments like mine? ok,I'll start reading the Huffington post and catch up! Not a chance!!
    Member Since: June 24, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1049
    210. PurpleDrank 3:10 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Without the use of sorcery, just exactly how is man to set his own desired climate settings?

    Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
    211. Birthmark 3:11 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting GeorgiaWx65:

    Well hang on a minute. Well technical definitions of weather and climate do differ in their existence, it should be pointed out that weather at the very least ultimately drives climate. In other words, climate is nothing more than a statistical compilation of various weather events of approximately 30 or more years.

    Weather drives climate. Period. If one is here points to the Texas heat wave and drought as a possible indicator of a changing climate due to human effects, than that criteria and philosophy would also apply to that link.

    It's a two way street here. The street runs both ways and one cannot make their reason upon a bias or predisposition of their view on AGW.

    And when that weather drives climate in one direction --up in this case-- then that trend must be explained. Physics demands it. The explanation is clear. Increasing concentration of CO2 is the cause. The evidence for that is overwhelming.

    Further, when the climate changes it begins to drive the weather. More extreme events --in frequency, duration, severity, and area-- begin to be more likely. This is being observed. It will not be a steady increase in any of the particulars. Why should it?

    Think of weather as a spinning top. Tops almost never spin perfectly in perpendicular fashion. There is almost always a little wobble. However, if spun with sufficient speed, that top will be more or less stable. As the top loses its stability, it begins to wobble more and more severely. Sometimes, they almost seem to recover briefly, but that never lasts long. The wobbling eventually becomes so pronounced and the top so unstable that it falls over.

    That isn't a perfect analogy since the top is losing energy while the Earth is gaining (retaining, actually) energy. However, it is a useful analogy, imo, in that it conveys what happens to a system that becomes unstable.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    212. Birthmark 3:13 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting PurpleDrank:
    Without the use of sorcery, just exactly how is man to set his own desired climate settings?


    I think that you are misguided as to the goal. The goal is to not be the cause of detrimental change.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    216. PurpleDrank 3:21 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting GeorgiaWx65:

    Hang on a minute. Extreme weather trends (natural or anthropogenic) is not necessarily a positive indicator of a warming climate. It has been documented in numerous studies that a cold climate would have just as many adverse affects on weather and weather-related disasters.

    Furthermore, using damages in sums of money cannot support a nonspurious relationship. It's impossible to show. The same would be deaths of individuals. These are politically and financial variable which alone cannot be fair used to scientifically draw conclusions upon when it comes to Earth's climatic trends.


    Indeed.


    Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
    217. Some1Has2BtheRookie 3:25 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting gotlieb:


    Fusion? Really? Someone please tell me why we shouldn't shift our entire power generation over to nuclear fission as fast as possible. Science based or at least logic based arguments only please.


    You did not read and/or comprehend my comment very well, did you?

    "I believe that our best energy source will come from nuclear fusion. We will ever obtain this? As yet, unknown."

    Where did I suggest that nuclear fusion is available to us now or that it ever will be? Scientist, hence my "Science based" comment being based on logic, are working on the possibility of our using nuclear fusion. - Nuclear Fusion - As I have stated, we may not acquire the knowledge to use nuclear fusion. Scientists are trying to work through the problems of our being able to use nuclear fusion as a reliable and safe energy source. What Scientist have not been able to do, an even more difficult task, is to show how our releasing billions of tons of previously sequestered carbon into the atmosphere and not have it contribute towards a rising atmospheric CO2 concentration in our atmosphere. Are you able to use science and logic to provide us with the answer to this? Should you be able to do so, the Nobel Peace Prize will be yours for the taking.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    218. Birthmark 3:29 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting GeorgiaWx65:

    Hang on a minute. Extreme weather trends (natural or anthropogenic) is not necessarily a positive indicator of a warming climate. It has been documented in numerous studies that a cold climate would have just as many adverse affects on weather and weather-related disasters.

    Furthermore, using damages in sums of money cannot support a nonspurious relationship. It's impossible to show. The same would be deaths of individuals. These are politically and financial variable which alone cannot be fair used to scientifically draw conclusions upon when it comes to Earth's climatic trends.

    I have nothing to say about the money angle. I didn't put forth the argument and have no opinion on it as I've not done the necessary research. The money angle of this whole thing is the least interesting or important, imo.

    No, the extreme weather events by themselves are not a positive indicator of a warming climate. I doubt any published scientific work is attributing them to cooling.) But the warming climate is a fact that is demonstrated by several lines of evidence. Further, increased atmospheric CO2 is primarily responsible, which is also strongly supported. Therefore, attributing the increasing extreme weather events to the warming climate is only logical.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    220. Some1Has2BtheRookie 3:36 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting PurpleDrank:
    Without the use of sorcery, just exactly how is man to set his own desired climate settings?



    Good morning, PurpleDrank.

    Man is not trying to obtain his own desired climate settings. Man is trying to keep from having a desirable climate to being changed into a climate that is far less than desirable for man. Will this take sorcery to accomplish? No. All that it takes to begin the move towards this goal is for enough people to be able to understand the science behind greenhouse gases and how they impact an atmosphere AND to act accordingly. .... OK, THAT part may require some sorcery.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    221. Some1Has2BtheRookie 3:43 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting overwash12:
    Comments like mine? ok,I'll start reading the Huffington post and catch up! Not a chance!!


    Good morning, sir!

    I would not use The Huffington Post, Fox News, The Wall Street Journal, MSNBC, CNN or any other commentary source as a resource to learn the science. I would use the science journals to explore and understand the science of the scientific topic you wish to know more of.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    222. overwash12 3:47 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


    Good morning, sir!

    I would not use The Huffington Post, Fox News, The Wall Street Journal, MSNBC, CNN or any other commentary source as a resource to learn the science. I would use the science journals to explore and understand the science of the scientific topic you wish to know more of.
    I hear ya,Wasn't trying to be facetious! I just think the whole health care system needs to be changed,but that's another issue.
    Member Since: June 24, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1049
    223. PurpleDrank 3:47 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    It is supported that the average global temperature on Jupiter is rising, thus making it possible for increased vortices in the planet's 70,000 year climate cycle. So yes, warming can be attributed to increased weather phenomenon.

    All of the planets in the solar system experience orbital eccentricities around a common star, which give fluctuations to climate changes.

    Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
    224. Birthmark 3:54 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting GeorgiaWx65:

    Hang on a minute. I vehemently disagree with everything you said. However, let's spitball this unprecedented rise in C02 assertion you are pawing off as scientific proof.

    Before I propose my question, let's remember to decifer opinion and anedotal observations from documented science first.

    Okay. Do you have any idea how much C02 and other greenhouse gases are emitted into the atmosphere after a major volcanic eruption? Let me give you a hint: quite a bit of it. So much of it that the Earth has been considerable warmer in the past than it is today. In fact, numerous times. Furthermore, the rate of increase in those C02 emission and other greenhouse gases have risen exponentially greater in the past numerous times than they are rising today.

    Um, no offense...but so what? How many technology bearing societies dependent on industrial farming for food existed at those times? If, as I believe the facts indicate, the answer is "zero" then those periods aren't really relevant.

    No one believes that the Earth itself is in danger, or even life. However, humanity is probably in for some tough to horrific times if we don't get on this problem NOW.

    And to answer your question on volcanoes, they do put out a lot of CO2...but on average it's minuscule compared to that put out by humans.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    225. Birthmark 3:55 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting PurpleDrank:
    It is supported that the average global temperature on Jupiter is rising, thus making it possible for increased vortices in the planet's 70,000 year climate cycle. So yes, warming can be attributed to increased weather phenomenon.

    All of the planets in the solar system experience orbital eccentricities around a common star, which give fluctuations to climate changes.


    Interesting, true, and irrelevant.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    229. Patrap 4:00 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    

    Climate change likely to worsen erosion along the Alaska coast

    Arctic sea ice was at its 2nd lowest extent on record during October 2011, according to the National Snow and Ice data Center. Much of the missing ice this fall is along the Bering Sea coast of Alaska, where today's massive storm is hitting. When sea ice disappears, coastlines become more susceptible to battering waves. This is particularly common during the fall season, not only because sea ice extent is usually at its minimum, but fall is when storms tend to be stronger with higher storm surges.

    Recent coastal destruction has already forced residents of the Alaskan town of Shishmaref to vote to abandon their village. More than half the residents of the nearby village of Kivalina (population 400) were forced to evacuate in September 2007, when 25 - 40 mph winds drove a four foot storm surge into the town. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers completed a $16 million sea wall and shore fortifications in 2009 to protect the town, and Kivalina is trusting these protections during today's storm; no evacuations occurred.
    Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 371 Comments: 111461
    230. Some1Has2BtheRookie 4:01 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting overwash12:
    I hear ya,Wasn't trying to be facetious! I just think the whole health care system needs to be changed,but that's another issue.


    I know you were not being facetious. A problem for us all is in "information overload". We need to be careful to choose were we are willing to obtain our information.

    Health care. Yes, this is another issue that needs to resolved. But, as you say, this is a separate issue.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    231. Some1Has2BtheRookie 4:06 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting PurpleDrank:
    It is supported that the average global temperature on Jupiter is rising, thus making it possible for increased vortices in the planet's 70,000 year climate cycle. So yes, warming can be attributed to increased weather phenomenon.

    All of the planets in the solar system experience orbital eccentricities around a common star, which give fluctuations to climate changes.



    Yes, I agree, but, this still does not negate CO2 being a greenhouse gas and that this fact, in itself, will cause a warming climate. We are not trying to right all that is "wrong" in the universe. We are just trying to get a better grip on our climate change and how we may impact it. This could be for the better or for the worse. To some degree, that is up to us.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    232. Birthmark 4:08 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting GeorgiaWx65:

    No offense taken. However, please do not take offense to my desire to stop debating climate science with certain individuals of whom are unwilling to recognize the significance of volcanic activity upon Earth's climate.

    In the past, or now? Volcanoes simply have had little effect on the current warming. Certainly, in the past there have been some severe effects. When something like Toba or Huckleberry Ridge or the mother of them all the Siberian Traps erupts, there is no doubt about the source of that climate change.

    But there's nothing even vaguely like that happening now.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    233. Some1Has2BtheRookie 4:17 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting GeorgiaWx65:

    No offense taken. However, please do not take offense to my desire to stop debating climate science with certain individuals of whom are unwilling to recognize the significance of volcanic activity upon Earth's climate.


    Unless there is a major volcanic eruption(s) then the "significance" of volcanic activity is minor. Let us say, for the sake of the debate, that volcanoes do play a major, long term part in our climate. This still does not negate the fact that we, mankind, through our own activities, also contribute towards long term impacts on our climate. We cannot cap the volcanoes but, we can begin to lessen our impact. ... When you see a fuel fire that you wish to contain, if not extinguish, then you do not introduce more fuel to the fire.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    235. overwash12 4:43 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Is there a support group for denialism? I guess they could start one,there is one for everything else. I could see it,due to the extreme blizzard raging tonight's DAA meeting is cancelled!LOL
    Member Since: June 24, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1049
    236. Birthmark 4:47 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting GeorgiaWx65:

    That is one of my main issues with the theory man is responsible for the current warming trend--a trend that has only been occurring for the past 25 years or so globally on Earth. That is a blink of an eye in the billion year existence of planet Earth.

    What does the longevity of the Earth's existence have to do with anything?

    And the current warming trend goes back further than 25 years. It actually takes off in the early 20th century, takes a breather for about 30 years (most likely due to aerosols, primarily from human activity), and then the trend is steadily upward since about 1975.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    238. Birthmark 5:02 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting GeorgiaWx65:

    You have heard of the Little Ice Age I assume? Oh but wait, what does the past 100 years have to do with anything regarding climate, right? :-)

    Earth’s existence in a historic context involving climate is critical to understand before one diagnoses climate and projecting future trends therein. This not only goes back 100 years from today, but since our fine planet has been spinning. Please please understand that.

    And what does the LIA have to do with the current warming?

    Frankly, such "context" means nothing since the central assertion of AGW Theory is that it is currently warming (and we are primarily responsible). AGW Theory does not assert that it hasn't been warmer in the past nor is it asserted that climate change cannot occur in the absence of human beings. Physics will serve us better in the current circumstances than history, though history can be useful somewhat.
    Member Since: October 30, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 1429
    240. 1911maker 5:13 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    E-Cat World
    Andrea Rossi's Cold Fusion Reacto

    Link

    No idea if this is a scam or what, but I see the topic of H-fusion came up so enjoy, or not.

    Polywell
    A polywell device is a type of fusion reactor that was originated by Robert Bussard under a U.S. Navy research contract
    Link

    I have been following this for a couple of years. This does not look to be a scam at all. Dr Bussard claimed that had they been funded at a decent rate, we would now have commercial H fusion devises for power generation. I have not found any indication that Dr. Bussard was a nut or not credible.

    some other links on Polywell
    Link

    Link
    Member Since: February 25, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 436
    241. 1911maker 5:20 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    

    .......
    Quoting Neapolitan:

    .

    And you're correct in stating that "Mother Nature will most likely step in at some point and do it for us". She's done so in the past, and she'll do so in the future; we humans are no more special than any of the other millions of species that have come and gone before.


    I think we only need to look to Africa right now to see how mother nature "takes care of the population problem"
    Member Since: February 25, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 436
    242. overwash12 5:23 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    @1911maker, Interesting stuff! Look how far man's achievements have come in 100 years! It would be safe to say that in the next 100 years,the use of fossil fuels will be a thing we seen in museums!
    Member Since: June 24, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1049
    243. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:23 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting 1911maker:
    E-Cat World
    Andrea Rossi's Cold Fusion Reacto

    Link

    No idea if this is a scam or what, but I see the topic of H-fusion came up so enjoy, or not.

    Polywell
    A polywell device is a type of fusion reactor that was originated by Robert Bussard under a U.S. Navy research contract
    Link

    I have been following this for a couple of years. This does not look to be a scam at all. Dr Bussard claimed that had they been funded at a decent rate, we would now have commercial H fusion devises for power generation. I have not found any indication that Dr. Bussard was a nut or not credible.

    some other links on Polywell
    Link

    Link


    Thank you, for the links! .... Let us hope that this really does become a viable energy source! This could prove to be our saving grace.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    244. PurpleDrank 5:28 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Still very little understood and studied is our planet's core. As surface dwellers, we seem to be only interested in changes to the panet's ice, oceans, weather, atmosphere, etc.

    In all factuality, the core of the planet, its chemistry and mechanism, is directly responsible for Earth having the climate and atmosphere it possesses.

    Currently, and most likely for the rest of our species' evolutionary lifetime, it is difficult to study something that is almost physically impossible to observe.

    But just because we can't, doesn't mean it is a non-factor in the climate debate. To rule out such an important engine of the planet in favor of what we can easily observe, is, no pun intended, only scratching the surface of truth.

    Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
    245. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:28 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting overwash12:
    @1911maker, Interesting stuff! Look how far man's achievements have come in 100 years! It would be safe to say that in the next 100 years,the use of fossil fuels will be a thing we seen in museums!


    I believe that fossil fuels will be delegated to museums as an oddity as their being used as a primary energy source. This, I believe will happen for one of two reasons:

    1.) We do develop the technology that takes us beyond using fossils fuels as a primary energy source.

    2.) We simply run out of enough supplies of fossil fuels to be economically viable as a primary energy source.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    246. 1911maker 5:29 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


    Good morning, sir!

    I would not use The Huffington Post, Fox News, The Wall Street Journal, MSNBC, CNN or any other commentary source as a resource to learn the science. I would use the science journals to explore and understand the science of the scientific topic you wish to know more of.


    Rookie, you forgot Rush Limbaugh, Ed Schultz and all the other sources of bad entertainment masquerading as serious news....

    but you still did good. I think you deserve to make the font size bigger on the leotard due to good work. :)
    Member Since: February 25, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 436
    247. overwash12 5:34 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


    I believe that fossil fuels will be delegated to museums as an oddity as their being used as a primary energy source. This, I believe will happen for one of two reasons:

    1.) We do develop the technology that takes us beyond using fossils fuels as a primary energy source.

    2.) We simply run out of enough supplies of fossil fuels to be economically viable as a primary energy source.
    We still have a long way to go,but I am an optimist and I believe it will happen in our lifetime!
    Member Since: June 24, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1049
    248. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:38 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting PurpleDrank:
    Still very little understood and studied is our planet's core. As surface dwellers, we seem to be only interested in changes to the panet's ice, oceans, weather, atmosphere, etc.

    In all factuality, the core of the planet, its chemistry and mechanism, is directly responsible for Earth having the climate and atmosphere it possesses.

    Currently, and most likely for the rest of our species' evolutionary lifetime, it is difficult to study something that is almost physically impossible to observe.

    But just because we can't, doesn't mean it is a non-factor in the climate debate. To rule out such an important engine of the planet in favor of what we can easily observe, is, no pun intended, only scratching the surface of truth.



    I agree with you 100%, PurpleDrank. There is still much to learn concerning the full dynamics of our atmosphere and our global climate. We are, however, not limited to just guesswork. There are many things that we do know about our atmosphere and our global climate. We must proceed based on our current knowledge and factor in any new data that we may be able to acquire. We know, for instance, that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and that mankind's activities contributes billions of tons of CO2 into our atmosphere. We also know that our activities are helping to destroy our planet's natural carbonsinks. We know that our continuing in this direction will have negative impacts towards Earth being able to maintain a balance of the CO2 released as opposed to what Earth's natural processes can absorb fast enough to maintain the balance.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    249. 1911maker 5:46 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting overwash12:
    We still have a long way to go,but I am an optimist and I believe it will happen in our lifetime!
    Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


    I believe that fossil fuels will be delegated to museums as an oddity as their being used as a primary energy source. This, I believe will happen for one of two reasons:

    1.) We do develop the technology that takes us beyond using fossils fuels as a primary energy source.

    2.) We simply run out of enough supplies of fossil fuels to be economically viable as a primary energy source.


    I have a farm in western North Dakota in the middle of the Oil Boom out there. My Dad worked the first boom. I grew up in the Second boom. I have a relatives and friends working this boom. I have vested interest (I own mineral rights) in how much oil there is to be produced. Rookies comment #2 above is SOOOOO right.

    I am old enough I think the oil will be here when I croak, but the kids will see it end.
    Member Since: February 25, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 436
    250. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:50 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting overwash12:
    We still have a long way to go,but I am an optimist and I believe it will happen in our lifetime!


    When people are willing to adjust their thinking based on new, provable data then, yes, there is reason to be optimistic. We both have been skeptics and neither of us turned away from a willingness to see the evidence available. You have also shown an ability to apply your logic and arrive at a reasoned conclusion. I do not say this for any reason other than your demonstration of being able to keep an open mind. No matter which side of the debate you ultimately side with, I will always remember that you thought it through first. That, my friend, is all that anyone has a right to ask of you. I tip my hat to you.
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
    251. Some1Has2BtheRookie 6:03 PM GMT on November 09, 2011    
    Quoting 1911maker:


    Rookie, you forgot Rush Limbaugh, Ed Schultz and all the other sources of bad entertainment masquerading as serious news....

    but you still did good. I think you deserve to make the font size bigger on the leotard due to good work. :)


    I fully understand what you are saying about the personalities but, this was not consequential to me. Each of these personalities represent their own networks. My bringing focus to these networks, I hope, has shed enough light on what sources to not use, for knowledge on a topic. I did not have to mention specific personalities. ... They know who they are and so do most others.

    My leotard is currently at the cleaners. I may suggest this to them. I am having it let out, again, and perhaps a larger font would be in order? LOL
    Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102

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    About RickyRood
    I'm a professor at U Michigan and lead a course on climate change problem solving. These articles include ideas from the course. And no tuition!

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